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foreign

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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foreign

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[Applause]

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hey good evening classes in session with

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the invisible night school for anyone

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joining us welcome whether you're live

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or watching this recorded we are very

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glad that you're here

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the invisible nightclub excuse me the

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invisible nightclub I wish the invisible

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night school is a small Consortium of

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Labor researchers and Scholars exploring

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UFOs uaps High strangeness and the

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cultural and social implications of the

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phenomenon you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com so I'm going to

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welcome I'm going to welcome welcome on

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my co-hosts here Nick Lewis and Campbell

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it's been a few weeks I'm a little bit

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Rusty yeah um stream yard's pretty

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tricky I know spirit is really tricky

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it's like you know so I heard

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complicated

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um

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so tonight we're going to be talking

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with Campbell uh who maintains

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uapstudy.com we'll be talking about

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plasma physics UFOs and the scientific

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method before we get into that we're

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also going to be speaking with Nick

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about his pet case the 1994 Lake

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Michigan sightings and then I'll also be

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talking about my time at the uh New York

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City Symposium a couple weeks ago with

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Gary Nolan Mitch Horowitz and a couple

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other members of the community

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so uh Nick why don't you go ahead and

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tell us about Lake Michigan sure so the

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uh the new season of Unsolved Mysteries

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just landed on Netflix where they're

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releasing it in the series and episode 2

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was the case that I previously worked on

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and found out I was cut from a couple

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weeks ago but it's about uh the like

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Mission case of 1994.

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and while I thought they stuck to the

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facts mostly there was one interesting

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claim that I had never heard that came

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out and it seems to be kind of the big

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one that's getting uh pushed around I've

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seen Jeremy Corbell retweeted I've seen

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um colavito uh posting about an article

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with a conversation in the director

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talking about UFOs looking for water

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and um as I was seeing this come out I

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watched the episode the morning it came

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out and I was uh kind of looking at the

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posts

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and this new claim about

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um a couple

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uh camping on the beach at midnight and

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seeing a UFO sucking up the water

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I thought was really odd because this is

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a new this is a new claim to the case

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this hasn't been reported before and it

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at least the show heavily implies that

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this uh this encounter came from

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Virginia Tilly one of the original

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investigators if you remember I was

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going to say this before you before you

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dive into like this particular thing can

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you give us just like a couple of minute

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overview of this case for people the

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whole case yes yeah March 8 uh 1994.

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multiple ground Witnesses uh see a group

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of Lights come together kind of spin

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around in a circle and depart now

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um

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Ottawa County dispatch and uh this

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conversation was recorded so we're able

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to kind of pinpoint where this thing was

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related to the ground witness seeing it

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the police end up showing up about 10

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minutes later confirms it tries to

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follow it due to all this uh all these

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911 calls about this UFO flying over the

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neighborhood in Holland Michigan by the

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way

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um they call the National Weather

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Service which is just about 30 miles

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north in Muskegon and the radar operator

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there the weather radar operator Jack

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Bouchon starts picking up anomalous

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Returns on his radar throughout the

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whole night and his conversation is also

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recorded on that tape

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so we have a a pretty well witnessed

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case as I like to say it and Michael

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borrowing from Michael's swords um

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what I like about the 911 call is that

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it's recording these eyewitness

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testimonies in real time so they can

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kind of corroborate each other and they

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aren't subject to

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um exaggeration or misremembering over

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the years which you do see from talking

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to these Witnesses this is a 30 year old

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case

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so this new episode kind of explores

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that and uh Jack Bouchon the weather

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radar operator kind of exploring this

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case trying to figure it out

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[Music]

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um

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so when I first came back into the UFO

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scene this was the first case I started

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researching

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um I reached out to a lot of the

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witnesses including Jack and Holly

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Graves who was featured on the show I

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was never able to get a hold of Virginia

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Tilley

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but um

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in dealing with them uh they mentioned

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that they were also speaking with a

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producer from rum salt Mysteries and we

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ended up connecting

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and a lot of that work that we did

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um before filming there was a lot of

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phone calls going on kind of um

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just information finding research

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um stuff like that a lot of them were

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recorded and occasionally I would speak

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to Jack on the phone and the producers

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would record that too

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that's where and I I'm pretty sure I can

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say this I don't think ndas uh hold out

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now that the episode's out

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um one thing that Jack was mentioning to

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me was that a portion of Lake Michigan

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in the southern portion just next to

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Chicago

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was uh the only part of the lake that

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was unfrozen and on that call I said oh

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well I believe that the NOAA keeps ice

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records of ice fishing or Lake Michigan

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all the ice covers so we looked that up

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that was kind of part of the discovery

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of this

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now move into filming um

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what they really focused on was uh as a

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researcher what I was looking for in

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this case I mean it's 30 year old case a

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lot of the stuff's already out there

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and uh my main point was trying to

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um match up what the ground people on

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the ground saw with the radar sightings

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because we can't conclusively link these

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yet because you don't have like a moment

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where that we know of there was on the

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ground and people see it and he saw it

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on the radar so that was kind of like

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the goal and it was like heavily

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stressed now

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um in my questioning

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they kind of like

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the director kind of played up like oh

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well are there other uh is this like

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kind of a hot spot for uh UFOs along

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like Michigan do you see them

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interacting with the water and I I

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rattled off like wine EQ

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um back in the 60s even Hudson Valley

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had some water related incidents and I

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mentioned what Jack and I had seen too

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now

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um this was a couple of years ago that

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we were doing all this uh this research

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and the filming and stuff

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um a rumor started spreading around

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between the

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um some of the witnesses who were in the

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in the actual episode about a new

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witness was found now

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come like a year later this episode

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finally releases and we see um it's at

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least heavily implied that Jenny Tilly

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finds a witness account from 1994 of

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people on the beach like I said camping

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March in the middle of the winter in the

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middle of the night camping on the beach

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I thought that was a little strange and

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they see out over the water uh just a

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tower of water going up into a light

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and I thought this was really strange

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especially coming from one of the

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original investigators because we

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haven't heard this claim before

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so my take on it was that either it is a

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legitimate claim that was made back then

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just hasn't been published as we know

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there are many things about this case

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that haven't been published that were

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held onto by move on

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but unfortunately we don't have anything

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to substantiate it we don't know who

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these Witnesses are and uh you know

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nothing's matching up with the the phone

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call that we have the one piece of

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evidence that we can kind of corroborate

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these stories

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but it started when I when I saw it and

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then was I was re-watching and talking

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to people on Twitter it started like

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really ringing a bell to me

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and in 1994 in Australia Gosford Lake

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there was a UFO sighting that was

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extremely similar to that UFOs over a

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body of water sucking it up into there

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same year I wonder if it was

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maybe a confabulation until he's part

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from back then I mean she was an active

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view of a photo investigator in 1994. I

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wonder if some wires got crossed there

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but I also kind of um I noticed that the

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narrative in the story at that point was

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about Jack trying to

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link the sightings uh the on the ground

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sightings with his radar sightings and

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actually he

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he says in the the episode this proves

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it this is the link I was looking for

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however it kind of contradicts the

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timeline that even the show established

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where

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um on the ground sightings were around 9

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30 p.m 9 30 to 9 45 p.m that's around

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the beginning of when um the dispatcher

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calls Jack at the weather service

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station he's he tracks these things till

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midnight now this claim of this

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waterspout UFO uh these Witnesses

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allegedly are alleged that this happened

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at midnight and they were they were like

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right off of Benton Harbor so at the

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beginning of the uh the portion with

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Jack speaking you can hear him calling

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off where his radar is hitting and he

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says a lot of it's down right by uh

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right by Benton Harbor and Decatur area

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in off Lake Michigan but they don't move

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to that southern portion until around 11

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or midnight when he says they disappear

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so I thought that was kind of

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interesting I see this

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um this claim coming out of nowhere and

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getting kind of legs and being added to

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the myth of this case when

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we don't know where it came from we

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don't know if it actually is related to

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this case and it certainly doesn't

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um

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it doesn't confirm this kind of

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narrative that they were going to that I

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feel a little responsible for kind of

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putting onto them too during the

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interview process so I said I don't know

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I see this I see this claim taking legs

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and I kind of wanted to nip it in the

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bud uh since I I see it kind of popping

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off now

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but that's that's my story about the

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Lake Michigan case and the Unsolved

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Mysteries episode get um yeah I mean

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this witness testimony from people came

279
00:10:26,930 --> 00:10:24,000
also seems pretty incredible congruent

280
00:10:32,329 --> 00:10:30,650
yeah right like no I mean like

281
00:10:33,769 --> 00:10:32,339
it's it's really a shame because uh

282
00:10:35,870 --> 00:10:33,779
right in the middle of that episode you

283
00:10:37,970 --> 00:10:35,880
have Bill koncoleski who's the chair of

284
00:10:39,470 --> 00:10:37,980
Michigan mufon come in there and they

285
00:10:42,410 --> 00:10:39,480
talk about mufon and how they

286
00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:42,420
investigated and they take reports from

287
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,640
you know thousands of cases all across

288
00:10:49,009 --> 00:10:46,320
the country blah blah blah

289
00:10:51,530 --> 00:10:49,019
Move On by their own admission has

290
00:10:54,050 --> 00:10:51,540
videos and photos from this case that

291
00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:54,060
they have never released and uh

292
00:10:57,650 --> 00:10:55,560
specifically mentioned in one of their

293
00:10:59,569 --> 00:10:57,660
journals is a video from a woman in

294
00:11:02,030 --> 00:10:59,579
Marcellus which is right next to Decatur

295
00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:02,040
and she said she was filming this thing

296
00:11:07,370 --> 00:11:04,320
around that 9 30

297
00:11:08,930 --> 00:11:07,380
uh time frame so I think that would go a

298
00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:08,940
lot further in establishing the link

299
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:10,680
between the on the ground Witnesses with

300
00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:12,240
the radar sightings

301
00:11:15,650 --> 00:11:13,740
but they're still sitting on it and he

302
00:11:17,810 --> 00:11:15,660
had a perfect opportunity being in that

303
00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:17,820
show to present that evidence but we

304
00:11:22,910 --> 00:11:20,160
never got to see it we have any reason

305
00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:22,920
why mufon isn't releasing any of this or

306
00:11:27,650 --> 00:11:25,320
hasn't released any of it are there any

307
00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:27,660
good conspiracies at least I don't know

308
00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:30,180
I don't know the the explanation I got

309
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:31,980
from bill concoleski when I when I

310
00:11:36,290 --> 00:11:34,560
called him was mufon likes to present

311
00:11:38,690 --> 00:11:36,300
the information they collected on their

312
00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:38,700
own in their own terms so they don't

313
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:42,060
like Give It Up to Me For example when I

314
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:45,360
was making a podcast to share that so I

315
00:11:49,970 --> 00:11:48,060
thought okay well I and I knew bill was

316
00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:49,980
uh involved in this episode so I was

317
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:51,240
like well maybe we'll see one of them

318
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:53,279
there because that is mufan kind of

319
00:11:57,650 --> 00:11:54,959
presenting it he was there he was kind

320
00:11:59,150 --> 00:11:57,660
of wrapping move on uh this would be a

321
00:12:01,130 --> 00:11:59,160
good opportunity for him to share at

322
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:01,140
least some of it I mean he admitted that

323
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:03,360
they don't look like much

324
00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:05,279
um Stephen Green Street reached out

325
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:07,260
should I get these uh videos and tapes

326
00:12:11,389 --> 00:12:09,839
to you and got the same response uh let

327
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:11,399
me dig them up they're not much and then

328
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:12,480
ghosted

329
00:12:16,850 --> 00:12:15,120
yeah yeah if they need more than 30

330
00:12:18,610 --> 00:12:16,860
years to present yeah like what are they

331
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:18,620
waiting for right

332
00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:20,880
and that's the reaction I get every time

333
00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:23,100
I bring this up and show like clips from

334
00:12:27,230 --> 00:12:24,660
their uh their journal they're like wait

335
00:12:28,610 --> 00:12:27,240
a minute I thought mufon was on our side

336
00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:28,620
what's mufan doing

337
00:12:33,769 --> 00:12:31,980
and we constantly tag them and stuff I I

338
00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:33,779
haven't gotten a good answer as to why

339
00:12:37,790 --> 00:12:35,940
they would just I I kind of can't

340
00:12:40,910 --> 00:12:37,800
remember who in this like our little

341
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:40,920
like codery of UFO people is anyone a

342
00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:43,200
Buffon field investigator or have you

343
00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:45,000
ever been one

344
00:12:48,290 --> 00:12:46,740
um I I was like kind of base level I

345
00:12:49,730 --> 00:12:48,300
ended up paying the monthly fees just to

346
00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:49,740
see if I could get more access to the

347
00:12:54,650 --> 00:12:51,720
information in their database sure which

348
00:12:56,269 --> 00:12:54,660
was Bare Bones if uh to put it lightly

349
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:56,279
like there's there's nothing there

350
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:58,260
especially I should look into getting

351
00:13:02,110 --> 00:13:00,959
trained as a field investigator I mean a

352
00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:02,120
few times

353
00:13:06,769 --> 00:13:04,620
to get the book and stuff maybe you can

354
00:13:09,290 --> 00:13:06,779
dig a Little Deeper but like these

355
00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:09,300
things are inaccessible I mean like I

356
00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:10,800
will never get laid again if my two

357
00:13:16,370 --> 00:13:12,660
hobbies are UFO investigation and

358
00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:16,380
amateur radio like that's it like don't

359
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:19,260
wear your lanyard yes spinster forever

360
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,160
um I I just I yeah it's a good question

361
00:13:27,050 --> 00:13:24,720
why why haven't they shared it I mean

362
00:13:29,329 --> 00:13:27,060
like even if it to to build his own

363
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:29,339
admission they look poor but if there's

364
00:13:32,990 --> 00:13:30,720
any kind of like

365
00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:33,000
Landmark you can notice in that video or

366
00:13:37,009 --> 00:13:35,519
even the time or Direction I it could it

367
00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:37,019
could bring us at least a little closer

368
00:13:41,449 --> 00:13:38,880
look there's been a lot of the

369
00:13:43,069 --> 00:13:41,459
challenges to move on for many years now

370
00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:43,079
right like like there was that whole

371
00:13:47,949 --> 00:13:45,480
Infamous uh thing where they were

372
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:47,959
selling their data to

373
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,880
Bigelow and um they've been always been

374
00:13:54,829 --> 00:13:52,560
very protective of their information

375
00:13:57,370 --> 00:13:54,839
right and so if they're monetizing it

376
00:14:00,110 --> 00:13:57,380
while being protective and not sort of

377
00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:00,120
being uh forthcoming in the

378
00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:01,920
circumstances where it feels like it

379
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:04,260
would be that time to do it like it

380
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:06,000
really looks bad on them and does not

381
00:14:10,009 --> 00:14:07,680
help their reputation at all but

382
00:14:13,190 --> 00:14:10,019
meanwhile they are kind of um

383
00:14:14,810 --> 00:14:13,200
amongst UFO groups a household name you

384
00:14:17,210 --> 00:14:14,820
know what I mean there's a Walmart of

385
00:14:19,190 --> 00:14:17,220
UFO groups essentially like moms have

386
00:14:21,889 --> 00:14:19,200
heard of them sometimes

387
00:14:24,590 --> 00:14:21,899
um and I'll also point out that like any

388
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:24,600
type of UFO coverage on media they have

389
00:14:28,490 --> 00:14:26,880
a representative in it too right they

390
00:14:31,190 --> 00:14:28,500
probably have video training so people

391
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:31,200
can actually talk to to reps man I I

392
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:32,399
just remember listening to Peter

393
00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:34,320
Davenport he's not mufan he was National

394
00:14:39,230 --> 00:14:37,380
UFO Reporting Center in like the 90s on

395
00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:39,240
Coast to Coast AM

396
00:14:42,769 --> 00:14:41,040
um and he he would pull the Linda bolt

397
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,779
and how where he'd like hold the tape

398
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:45,120
recorder up to the landline phone and

399
00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:47,040
like play it over AM radio there's like

400
00:14:52,129 --> 00:14:49,380
a very part particular Nostalgia to

401
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,139
listening to those uh old conversations

402
00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:54,480
say he always seemed to be kind of like

403
00:14:59,329 --> 00:14:55,800
uh

404
00:15:01,069 --> 00:14:59,339
much more above board but just doesn't

405
00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:01,079
have the same household recognition as

406
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:03,240
as mufon does

407
00:15:07,009 --> 00:15:05,100
I wanna I wanna say one other thing too

408
00:15:09,230 --> 00:15:07,019
and I don't want it to come off as me

409
00:15:12,410 --> 00:15:09,240
like disparaging anyone

410
00:15:15,230 --> 00:15:12,420
um but Tilly uh Jennifer or no sorry

411
00:15:17,689 --> 00:15:15,240
Virginia Tilly the original investigator

412
00:15:19,970 --> 00:15:17,699
who I believe that this water spout UFO

413
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,980
report came from she was also the one

414
00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:21,120
who

415
00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:23,399
quit Moon fun in protest to start her

416
00:15:27,769 --> 00:15:25,920
own group uh here in Grand Rapids and

417
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:27,779
she put out that that newsletter called

418
00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:29,100
the outer connection

419
00:15:33,170 --> 00:15:31,199
um I think it was a year or so later

420
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:33,180
but the interesting thing and this part

421
00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:35,040
wasn't written by her so I'm going to

422
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:36,540
say like this necessarily affects her

423
00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:38,639
track record it was by a a different

424
00:15:43,009 --> 00:15:40,980
reporter in her new group but he gave

425
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:43,019
this whole Cloak and Dagger deep throat

426
00:15:47,210 --> 00:15:45,120
story about how he got these radar

427
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:47,220
images from that case which of course

428
00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:49,680
turned out to be the radar blanks that

429
00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:51,540
uh Michael Professor Michael swords and

430
00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:53,880
Jack Bouchon made several days after the

431
00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:55,380
fact

432
00:16:00,170 --> 00:15:57,300
um one copy stayed with swords and went

433
00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:00,180
back to um kufos jail and heinx kufos

434
00:16:05,569 --> 00:16:03,540
and uh the other one went to the NOAA so

435
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:05,579
perhaps they were foia or something but

436
00:16:10,430 --> 00:16:07,920
the story of how these things came to be

437
00:16:12,050 --> 00:16:10,440
it was from a secret Insider who died

438
00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:12,060
apparently and they were talking in like

439
00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:14,880
old message boards and AOL chat rooms I

440
00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:16,740
can't just hop you have like one normal

441
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:19,500
thing I don't know why is it always like

442
00:16:25,370 --> 00:16:22,560
this this is weird Shady story it's

443
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,380
always weird and Shady that is like by

444
00:16:29,329 --> 00:16:27,600
it is de facto ufology if it is weird

445
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:29,339
and Shady but the thing the thing about

446
00:16:33,889 --> 00:16:31,680
it is is like it was unnecessarily so

447
00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:33,899
because like these these radar maps

448
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:35,880
weren't a secret they weren't they

449
00:16:38,509 --> 00:16:37,199
weren't classified or anything like that

450
00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:38,519
they weren't even hidden they just

451
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:40,680
hadn't been published by kufos at the

452
00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:42,959
time yet so where did this story come

453
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:44,940
from so I wanna I wanna point that out

454
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,560
and say that's like that's not exactly

455
00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:48,959
coming from genitalia I'm not saying

456
00:16:53,449 --> 00:16:51,540
anything negative about her but I do it

457
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:53,459
does really make me wonder if that case

458
00:17:00,170 --> 00:16:56,399
was confabulated with the uh Gosford

459
00:17:02,269 --> 00:17:00,180
Lake 94 case and it just kind of fit

460
00:17:05,530 --> 00:17:02,279
that story for the episode really well

461
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:05,540
because it tied in the weird water stuff

462
00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:08,640
it alleged to kind of corroborate the

463
00:17:12,409 --> 00:17:10,020
underground and the radar sightings

464
00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:12,419
because people do have to remember with

465
00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:14,040
with all media like this whether it's

466
00:17:17,929 --> 00:17:15,480
Unsolved Mysteries or a James Fox

467
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:17,939
documentary this is entertainment

468
00:17:23,689 --> 00:17:20,640
so it's not don't do your research by

469
00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:23,699
watching TV shows uh or movies like

470
00:17:27,470 --> 00:17:25,500
actually look into it listen to what the

471
00:17:29,390 --> 00:17:27,480
people say I always recommend going to

472
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:29,400
the AFU and looking up what people were

473
00:17:34,010 --> 00:17:31,200
reporting at the time

474
00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:34,020
um I also oh I was gonna say I also

475
00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:36,360
wonder too it feels like they're like

476
00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:38,460
um submersible unidentified submersible

477
00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:39,960
objects has sort of entered the

478
00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:42,660
euphological Zeitgeist a lot more so it

479
00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:43,980
doesn't surprise me that they'd kind of

480
00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:46,440
try to fold that in to any sort of

481
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,840
recollection on a historical case sure

482
00:17:53,150 --> 00:17:50,880
yeah and I mean like yeah they were

483
00:17:55,549 --> 00:17:53,160
telling a story it's a TV show obviously

484
00:17:57,770 --> 00:17:55,559
so they were they were making

485
00:18:00,049 --> 00:17:57,780
connections they were filling in gaps um

486
00:18:02,029 --> 00:18:00,059
I wouldn't take that seriously I know I

487
00:18:03,770 --> 00:18:02,039
haven't oh sorry I haven't seen the

488
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:03,780
actual episode yet

489
00:18:08,210 --> 00:18:05,580
um but uh the content that I've seen

490
00:18:10,909 --> 00:18:08,220
shared on like Twitter it's interesting

491
00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:10,919
because it does seem to heavily involve

492
00:18:16,970 --> 00:18:14,580
the waterspout thing and yeah because we

493
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:16,980
covered this with your excellent uh

494
00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:19,919
in-depth uh you know analysis of the

495
00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:21,780
available information like we are

496
00:18:27,230 --> 00:18:25,380
familiar with the verifiable details and

497
00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:27,240
I find it very intriguing that

498
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:29,700
potentially the most memorable element

499
00:18:34,430 --> 00:18:32,340
of this new representation is

500
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:34,440
potentially entirely fictional and it

501
00:18:38,990 --> 00:18:37,020
just is like such a classic example of

502
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:39,000
everything wrong with this subject right

503
00:18:43,130 --> 00:18:41,760
I mean like I said in the beginning it

504
00:18:45,470 --> 00:18:43,140
is possible that this was an original

505
00:18:48,350 --> 00:18:45,480
claim from back in 1994. we do know that

506
00:18:49,789 --> 00:18:48,360
like multiple people called in a 9-1-1

507
00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:49,799
that aren't on that tape and we know

508
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:51,960
that mufon took a lot of reports from

509
00:18:56,750 --> 00:18:54,840
around then so like sure sure maybe it

510
00:18:59,390 --> 00:18:56,760
is an original account I don't think it

511
00:19:01,130 --> 00:18:59,400
adds any value to the story as dramatic

512
00:19:03,529 --> 00:19:01,140
as it sounds because like I said it's

513
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:03,539
not corroborated on that tape you know

514
00:19:05,930 --> 00:19:04,799
we're hearing this out of the blue 30

515
00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:05,940
years later

516
00:19:11,090 --> 00:19:08,820
and it doesn't line up with

517
00:19:13,370 --> 00:19:11,100
um the recording of Jack tracking the

518
00:19:15,049 --> 00:19:13,380
radar you know what I mean they none of

519
00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:15,059
them were off the coast of Benton Harbor

520
00:19:18,529 --> 00:19:16,440
at the time according to him they were

521
00:19:21,169 --> 00:19:18,539
all located all the returns were located

522
00:19:24,350 --> 00:19:21,179
kind of southern area of Lake Michigan

523
00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:24,360
down by Indiana and Chicago so I don't

524
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:26,580
know it it shook me when I watched it

525
00:19:30,770 --> 00:19:29,039
and then on the on the episode they had

526
00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:30,780
the radar operator sort of say something

527
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:34,620
like uh this sort of connects these

528
00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:36,360
things is that what I heard you say yes

529
00:19:42,350 --> 00:19:40,020
yeah and like and from experience

530
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:42,360
um the way that they have you speak on

531
00:19:46,190 --> 00:19:44,220
these shows is they ask you a question

532
00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:46,200
and then they say tell it back to me

533
00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:47,820
like you're telling me a statement so

534
00:19:51,289 --> 00:19:49,380
like if the question is what do you

535
00:19:53,770 --> 00:19:51,299
think about this you're supposed to say

536
00:19:56,990 --> 00:19:53,780
what I think about this is

537
00:20:00,049 --> 00:19:57,000
so I mean you're coached to say certain

538
00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:00,059
things and uh kind of like because they

539
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:01,260
are like I said like I keep saying

540
00:20:04,669 --> 00:20:02,640
they're building a narrative and stuff

541
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:04,679
so yeah yeah I said some cookie things

542
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:07,679
myself uh so I'm kind of glad it didn't

543
00:20:12,529 --> 00:20:10,320
make it you let your Fame go to that go

544
00:20:15,770 --> 00:20:12,539
to your head man yeah you're gonna be a

545
00:20:17,330 --> 00:20:15,780
rock star yeah I I and I like honestly I

546
00:20:19,730 --> 00:20:17,340
was in a different mindset back then too

547
00:20:21,549 --> 00:20:19,740
I was a little more delivery at the time

548
00:20:23,450 --> 00:20:21,559
too so

549
00:20:25,850 --> 00:20:23,460
and um

550
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,860
aside from that water spout thing I want

551
00:20:30,049 --> 00:20:28,080
to say that um they did Cover the events

552
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:30,059
pretty well

553
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:33,240
um but I do if you pay strict attention

554
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:36,720
to what is said on the 911 tape and the

555
00:20:41,029 --> 00:20:38,940
visuals that they use

556
00:20:43,370 --> 00:20:41,039
you'll notice that they are a bit

557
00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:43,380
exaggerated in my opinion although I did

558
00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:45,000
talk to Holly right after she messaged

559
00:20:47,690 --> 00:20:46,380
me and she said what did you think and I

560
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:47,700
was like oh it's cool but more

561
00:20:51,710 --> 00:20:49,440
importantly what do you think you saw it

562
00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:51,720
and she said that she thought the uh the

563
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,020
representation was good so either

564
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:56,880
um her memory has been exaggerated over

565
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,280
these years or they did do a good job

566
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:01,440
and when she said it looked like a

567
00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:02,940
string of Christmas lights up in this

568
00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:05,460
guy that was maybe she was more at loss

569
00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:07,500
for words because that's what I always

570
00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:09,480
pictured as smaller lights kind of

571
00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:10,980
further away they come together and

572
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:13,020
break apart not these like discs that

573
00:21:17,330 --> 00:21:14,580
they should these glowing discs that

574
00:21:19,789 --> 00:21:17,340
like explode in the sky on the TV show

575
00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:19,799
that was neat to see but

576
00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:21,960
that waterfall thing man I don't I just

577
00:21:25,850 --> 00:21:22,860
don't know

578
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:25,860
you said you said the water fountain

579
00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:26,940
spout

580
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:28,740
um that there was another case in

581
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:30,480
Australia

582
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:31,760
yeah

583
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:34,080
I remember reading about something like

584
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:35,760
that in this magazine called The X

585
00:21:40,370 --> 00:21:38,280
Factor back in the 90s it was like a

586
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:40,380
paranormal kind of series that you would

587
00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:42,240
buy every week yeah

588
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,280
um there was actually another

589
00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:46,080
claim like that I think it was from an

590
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:49,260
American Service man so this story might

591
00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:50,880
have been sort of doing the rounds back

592
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:53,640
then this Trope I wonder if he could

593
00:21:57,470 --> 00:21:55,440
find out which case that was that's

594
00:22:00,049 --> 00:21:57,480
really interesting I'd like to see it

595
00:22:02,029 --> 00:22:00,059
because I mean like um there was a a

596
00:22:05,210 --> 00:22:02,039
similar claim in uh at the weineke

597
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,220
reservoir I think that was 66 or 67 but

598
00:22:09,049 --> 00:22:08,159
I don't remember Craig would know

599
00:22:11,450 --> 00:22:09,059
um

600
00:22:13,789 --> 00:22:11,460
but I I believe it was also sucking up

601
00:22:16,610 --> 00:22:13,799
water and then one of the earlier uh

602
00:22:18,169 --> 00:22:16,620
claims in Hudson Valley was that they

603
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:18,179
saw the the boomerang hovering over

604
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:19,919
water and dropping down kind of a red

605
00:22:24,890 --> 00:22:22,559
probe in like I don't know stirring the

606
00:22:26,210 --> 00:22:24,900
waters I'm not really sure what it was

607
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:26,220
doing but uh

608
00:22:29,810 --> 00:22:27,840
lots of lots of stories of them

609
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:29,820
interacting is it like the Council

610
00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:31,919
Bluffs Iowa case involved this kind of

611
00:22:37,310 --> 00:22:35,100
stuff too say that again my the Council

612
00:22:39,289 --> 00:22:37,320
Bluffs Iowa okay oh I don't know that

613
00:22:41,390 --> 00:22:39,299
one like yeah that would I I remember

614
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:41,400
that one coming up on UCR from rather a

615
00:22:44,570 --> 00:22:42,720
few times and looking into it there's

616
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:44,580
not too much like excellent resources or

617
00:22:48,350 --> 00:22:46,559
documentation on it but it happened at

618
00:22:50,090 --> 00:22:48,360
like a park with a big lake and I feel

619
00:22:51,950 --> 00:22:50,100
like it has something similar to that

620
00:22:54,590 --> 00:22:51,960
where it was dropping slag and then

621
00:22:57,409 --> 00:22:54,600
pulling up water oh based on witness

622
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:57,419
reports Mori Island was like that too

623
00:23:00,770 --> 00:22:58,799
where they were dropping the the donut

624
00:23:03,289 --> 00:23:00,780
UFOs that were dropping the slag in the

625
00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:03,299
water hit a dog allegedly and put a hole

626
00:23:07,370 --> 00:23:04,520
in a boat

627
00:23:09,470 --> 00:23:07,380
that was an old one Kenneth Arnold was

628
00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:09,480
involved in uh really oh that's like an

629
00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:14,750
one of the things that um high neck

630
00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:16,260
investigated

631
00:23:20,450 --> 00:23:19,500
was like some UFO dropping hot fragments

632
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:20,460
of us

633
00:23:26,409 --> 00:23:23,640
um these boatmen yeah I think that was

634
00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:26,419
Maureen oh is it okay

635
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:28,740
no shag Harbor was different I don't

636
00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:30,559
know I don't know they're all the same

637
00:23:34,750 --> 00:23:32,340
they're all the same and they're all

638
00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:37,270
it could be China

639
00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:39,919
I think it probably is China

640
00:23:45,289 --> 00:23:42,840
all the way back case closed we can end

641
00:23:47,390 --> 00:23:45,299
the stream we're good

642
00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:47,400
um excellent so Nick thanks for the

643
00:23:51,710 --> 00:23:49,740
recap uh I I do think we owe this case

644
00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:51,720
like a deep dive on the live stream I

645
00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:53,820
know we did the Twitter space on it oh

646
00:23:56,570 --> 00:23:55,320
right yeah you know having the

647
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:56,580
opportunity to go back and forth about

648
00:23:59,390 --> 00:23:57,840
it and talk through it I think is

649
00:24:01,789 --> 00:23:59,400
interesting especially again because

650
00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:01,799
we're seeing this like Community

651
00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:04,380
collaborative miss making emerge again

652
00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:06,480
about an old case now that it's sort of

653
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:08,460
being brought back up for air an

654
00:24:12,289 --> 00:24:10,320
Unsolved Mysteries I just see it

655
00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:12,299
snowballing too

656
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:14,400
um but like my examples are two people

657
00:24:18,289 --> 00:24:16,799
posting about it but I can just see it

658
00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:18,299
picking up steam from there I tried to

659
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:20,280
jump into one section and kind of like

660
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:22,980
put out little fires at least from my

661
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,720
perspective good luck it's pissing into

662
00:24:28,669 --> 00:24:27,120
the wind man I know I know I would

663
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,679
always I would I'll always talk about

664
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,720
this case though so if next stream you

665
00:24:34,909 --> 00:24:32,880
want to talk about it I'll bring slides

666
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,919
um I got a lot I've got a lot of

667
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:36,720
documents and info on the case so we can

668
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:39,120
go over it like in in terrible

669
00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:41,700
excruciating detail next time I can't

670
00:24:46,370 --> 00:24:43,500
wait we're all gonna be like we're all

671
00:24:48,110 --> 00:24:46,380
UFO brain men so this is great

672
00:24:50,930 --> 00:24:48,120
um yeah so I was gonna kind of do like

673
00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:50,940
my little show and tell piece uh so I

674
00:24:54,649 --> 00:24:52,380
was in New York City

675
00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:54,659
um about 10 days ago now for an inquiry

676
00:24:57,890 --> 00:24:56,340
into anomalous experiences and the

677
00:25:00,890 --> 00:24:57,900
phenomenon which was this one day

678
00:25:02,770 --> 00:25:00,900
Symposium hosted by James iandoli who

679
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:02,780
runs the engaging the phenomenon podcast

680
00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:05,520
and then Jay Christopher King who runs

681
00:25:09,890 --> 00:25:07,740
the experiencer group they were joined

682
00:25:11,690 --> 00:25:09,900
by two awesome co-hosts Kelly Chase and

683
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:11,700
Priscilla Stone from the Run UFO Rabbit

684
00:25:14,270 --> 00:25:13,620
Hole in Quantum witch Cafe

685
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:14,280
um

686
00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:20,820
beings was kind enough to give me a

687
00:25:24,049 --> 00:25:22,140
ticket really appreciates what we're

688
00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:24,059
doing with our own podcast I think in

689
00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:25,620
the kind of conversations we're having

690
00:25:30,350 --> 00:25:28,200
and um you know it's basically in my

691
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:30,360
backyard so I jumped a train went uh

692
00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:32,880
down to the city and uh the lineup was

693
00:25:35,930 --> 00:25:34,020
pretty solid

694
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:35,940
um I would say in the green room before

695
00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:39,120
we started uh as an ex academic I could

696
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:40,500
say

697
00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:43,200
um pretty candidly that the majority of

698
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:45,000
the speakers would not have been out of

699
00:25:48,169 --> 00:25:46,620
place at like a standard academic

700
00:25:50,750 --> 00:25:48,179
conference

701
00:25:55,310 --> 00:25:50,760
um the lineup was a like pretty stacked

702
00:25:57,409 --> 00:25:55,320
we had uh Dr Sean esperan hoggins who um

703
00:25:58,549 --> 00:25:57,419
had the first presentation of the day

704
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:58,559
talked a lot about the connection

705
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:01,200
between experience your phenomena and

706
00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:03,600
sort of these constellation of numinous

707
00:26:06,409 --> 00:26:04,980
events that humans have been reporting

708
00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:06,419
throughout history and he walked us

709
00:26:10,490 --> 00:26:07,980
through basically like the different

710
00:26:11,690 --> 00:26:10,500
Frameworks that different religions and

711
00:26:12,649 --> 00:26:11,700
spiritual

712
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:12,659
um

713
00:26:17,450 --> 00:26:15,600
systems used to like frame and identify

714
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:17,460
and understand different things and like

715
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:20,400
I I've been on a deep deep rabbit hole

716
00:26:24,409 --> 00:26:22,799
with uh mystical Buddhism lately so it

717
00:26:26,930 --> 00:26:24,419
was really cool seeing like a discussion

718
00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:26,940
about vajrayana and the rainbow body

719
00:26:31,310 --> 00:26:29,220
alongside conversations about like

720
00:26:32,529 --> 00:26:31,320
contemporary experience or phenomenology

721
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:32,539
yeah

722
00:26:39,769 --> 00:26:37,740
um and kudos to him because he also is

723
00:26:42,370 --> 00:26:39,779
doing something that uh I think is

724
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:42,380
important which is he's

725
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:46,020
he's uh almost in an ethnographic

726
00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:47,760
fashion approaching experience or

727
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:49,860
phenomena so rather than he's basically

728
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:52,740
trying to disintermediate like

729
00:26:57,710 --> 00:26:56,159
UFO government Black Ops conspiracy

730
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:57,720
narratives from the experiencer

731
00:27:01,310 --> 00:26:59,760
experience which I think is really cool

732
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,320
and important like he's treating it like

733
00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:03,840
with a sense of academic rigor

734
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:05,580
um and pretty interdisciplinary he was

735
00:27:10,010 --> 00:27:07,500
also um

736
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:10,020
anyway my point is I found the content

737
00:27:13,370 --> 00:27:11,760
and quality of his presentation like

738
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,380
pretty impressive

739
00:27:18,409 --> 00:27:15,600
um Tim grief Carlson from Westminster

740
00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:18,419
College in Pennsylvania he read an

741
00:27:23,810 --> 00:27:20,940
excerpt from his uh book on the Big

742
00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:23,820
Thicket in East Texas he was a PhD

743
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,320
student under Jeff [\h__\h] at Rice

744
00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:27,600
University basically writing about the

745
00:27:33,710 --> 00:27:31,140
role of um I think like a cult phenomena

746
00:27:36,529 --> 00:27:33,720
and folk religion and stuff very

747
00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:36,539
interesting again super academic

748
00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:38,220
um I don't want to project anything onto

749
00:27:41,630 --> 00:27:39,900
the crowd but like I'm at the edge of my

750
00:27:42,830 --> 00:27:41,640
seat completely nerding out but I'm

751
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:42,840
pretty sure a lot of the people in the

752
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:44,159
audience were like show me the [\h__\h]

753
00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:46,559
aliens like what's going on here

754
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,380
um Horowitz yeah they've been waiting a

755
00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:51,120
long time and you know it's always they

756
00:27:55,370 --> 00:27:53,580
were hoping soon was that Saturday

757
00:27:57,470 --> 00:27:55,380
um Mitch Horowitz

758
00:27:58,909 --> 00:27:57,480
um spoke uh candidly he was really who I

759
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:58,919
went to see him I really love Mitch

760
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:01,679
Horowitz cult scholar and historian

761
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,840
um definitely kind of the Black Sheep on

762
00:28:07,250 --> 00:28:05,520
the lineup but he really spoke about the

763
00:28:09,049 --> 00:28:07,260
necessity of skepticism in these spaces

764
00:28:11,450 --> 00:28:09,059
and the need for collaboration between

765
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:11,460
like researchers and Skeptics to really

766
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:13,679
help deliver high integrity research and

767
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:16,260
Analysis so like again subjects of my

768
00:28:20,029 --> 00:28:18,840
own heart like I was like great this is

769
00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:20,039
exactly what needs to be said about

770
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:22,020
these things was this uh was this

771
00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:23,039
recorded

772
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:26,220
really

773
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:27,840
um I haven't gotten a copy of the

774
00:28:30,769 --> 00:28:29,279
recording

775
00:28:32,450 --> 00:28:30,779
see if I can dig up a copy for you guys

776
00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:32,460
I think you would

777
00:28:35,390 --> 00:28:34,020
have seriousness but it was very very

778
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:35,400
good

779
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:37,679
um exo-academian presented this guy

780
00:28:41,630 --> 00:28:40,080
Darren I am not familiar with him

781
00:28:44,210 --> 00:28:41,640
um he talked a lot about like

782
00:28:45,529 --> 00:28:44,220
Consciousness and reality uh he cited my

783
00:28:46,510 --> 00:28:45,539
favorite talked a lot about Bernardo

784
00:28:49,789 --> 00:28:46,520
Castro

785
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:49,799
Penrose you know Rupert sheldrake sort

786
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:51,840
of like the best of hits on this kind of

787
00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:53,760
stuff and then of course the headliner

788
00:28:58,490 --> 00:28:56,340
was Gary Nolan and Gary Nolan like man

789
00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:58,500
dude has it made he talked for like two

790
00:29:01,250 --> 00:28:59,640
minutes and then just took questions

791
00:29:04,430 --> 00:29:01,260
from the audience for probably an hour

792
00:29:06,409 --> 00:29:04,440
and a half um like very candidly like

793
00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:06,419
that's the site of ufology like that I

794
00:29:11,149 --> 00:29:08,220
pay the least attention to like the Gary

795
00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:11,159
Nolan or Elizondo government yeah

796
00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:13,020
like I know the least about it I kind of

797
00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:16,260
am the least invested in it in some ways

798
00:29:22,850 --> 00:29:20,580
um but he uh I I will say to Gary's

799
00:29:24,889 --> 00:29:22,860
credit his disposition in person

800
00:29:25,909 --> 00:29:24,899
speaking is very different than it is on

801
00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:25,919
the internet that's really

802
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,140
unsurprisingly yes

803
00:29:33,409 --> 00:29:31,679
um and he was asked you know this sir

804
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:33,419
this plethora of questions that were

805
00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:35,640
pretty detailed in Arcane like that

806
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:37,740
blood like a real familiarity with not

807
00:29:42,769 --> 00:29:40,500
only like his ufological research but

808
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:42,779
his actual like Stanford Institute

809
00:29:47,450 --> 00:29:44,460
research

810
00:29:48,889 --> 00:29:47,460
um you know he overall

811
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:48,899
um like they're holding another one on

812
00:29:53,210 --> 00:29:50,880
December 3rd with Leslie Kane Whitley

813
00:29:54,889 --> 00:29:53,220
streber Jeff [\h__\h] Jeff kreibel for me

814
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:54,899
alone is the reason to make another trip

815
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:57,840
to New York um I am I adore Jeff [\h__\h]

816
00:30:02,810 --> 00:30:00,240
um so I plan on being in attendance so

817
00:30:04,549 --> 00:30:02,820
in some great event but what I really

818
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:04,559
wanted to talk about which I think is

819
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:07,260
especially interesting was sort of the

820
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:08,820
post event

821
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:11,760
uh experience right so first and

822
00:30:15,289 --> 00:30:14,100
foremost like I got to meet a lot of

823
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:15,299
people in the community especially

824
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:17,580
people on like the other side of the

825
00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:20,100
community that you know I don't have as

826
00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:22,140
much interfacing with

827
00:30:26,090 --> 00:30:23,220
um

828
00:30:28,430 --> 00:30:26,100
yes yeah KingBach part was there

829
00:30:30,769 --> 00:30:28,440
um uh tiny cross was there it was sort

830
00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:30,779
of like the best of the the greatest

831
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:32,940
hits of UFO Twitter

832
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:35,039
um everybody was super Pleasant friendly

833
00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:37,200
lots of people recognized me which was

834
00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:38,700
really

835
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:39,260
um

836
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:41,640
kind of cool and also a little

837
00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:43,500
terrifying like when people recognize

838
00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:45,179
you and like you and I'm just like dude

839
00:30:50,210 --> 00:30:47,220
I just know you as a UFO picture on

840
00:30:53,570 --> 00:30:50,220
Twitter and like a jumble of names and

841
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:53,580
numbers like I don't know who you are

842
00:30:58,010 --> 00:30:56,159
um but people people are really cool and

843
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,020
I think it's also like a classic example

844
00:31:01,669 --> 00:31:00,000
of what happens when you make good faith

845
00:31:03,169 --> 00:31:01,679
effort to Coalition build or even just

846
00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:03,179
show up in each other's faces because

847
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:05,220
like nobody starts [\h__\h] you realize

848
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:06,720
you're you know actually human beings

849
00:31:11,149 --> 00:31:08,640
you have a shared interest people were

850
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:11,159
well behaved and welcoming

851
00:31:14,510 --> 00:31:12,720
um but the the other thing that was

852
00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:14,520
really interesting for me

853
00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:17,580
um was watching kind of the post-event

854
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:20,460
responses to a lot of the things that

855
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:22,399
were discussed in these presentations

856
00:31:28,370 --> 00:31:25,440
and I say this because

857
00:31:30,289 --> 00:31:28,380
um and I see this candidly

858
00:31:32,590 --> 00:31:30,299
um without claiming to be free of

859
00:31:35,570 --> 00:31:32,600
cognitive biases or my own projections

860
00:31:38,090 --> 00:31:35,580
but a lot of the post-event discourse

861
00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:38,100
that I saw emerge on Twitter

862
00:31:44,269 --> 00:31:40,500
um in like sort of the UFO space

863
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:44,279
felt to me very much a transmutation of

864
00:31:48,830 --> 00:31:46,320
what was actually discussed that day in

865
00:31:52,250 --> 00:31:48,840
many of those presentations like I I

866
00:31:54,649 --> 00:31:52,260
even by very strong Ultra skeptic

867
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:54,659
critical material is thinking I think

868
00:31:58,130 --> 00:31:57,120
everybody I know in that Arena could

869
00:31:59,450 --> 00:31:58,140
could have sat through these

870
00:32:02,750 --> 00:31:59,460
presentations and found them pretty

871
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:02,760
Meritus and like worthy of consideration

872
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:05,039
um aliens and extraterrestrials didn't

873
00:32:09,889 --> 00:32:08,399
come up like once that entire day but I

874
00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:09,899
can't tell you how many times I read

875
00:32:14,049 --> 00:32:12,360
some discourse about what people saw or

876
00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:14,059
heard and it involved aliens

877
00:32:18,049 --> 00:32:16,860
extraterrestrials abductees this kind of

878
00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:18,059
like

879
00:32:27,409 --> 00:32:25,140
seeing what they wanted to see or hear

880
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:27,419
out of these presentations

881
00:32:31,970 --> 00:32:30,480
um and you know I mean we always like we

882
00:32:33,529 --> 00:32:31,980
always talk about the kind of community

883
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:33,539
and collaborative myth making that

884
00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:35,760
happens in ufology it was kind of just

885
00:32:39,169 --> 00:32:37,320
kind of interesting to see happen

886
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:39,179
basically in real time where I was like

887
00:32:42,289 --> 00:32:40,799
did we even attend like the same

888
00:32:45,409 --> 00:32:42,299
conference like did we hear the same

889
00:32:48,289 --> 00:32:45,419
talks here like how could you take away

890
00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:48,299
like even Dr Nolan was pretty reserved

891
00:32:53,389 --> 00:32:51,480
in his discussion about disclosure and

892
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:53,399
the the idea that people were coming

893
00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:55,140
away being like Oh man disclosure is

894
00:32:58,970 --> 00:32:56,340
coming soon we're gonna know everything

895
00:33:01,490 --> 00:32:58,980
I was like did like what happened here

896
00:33:04,669 --> 00:33:01,500
did we listen to the same person

897
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:04,679
um right well I I always ask uh like

898
00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:06,179
especially after doing the Hudson Valley

899
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,100
case like how did people see a formation

900
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:10,799
of planes uh as this dramatic event

901
00:33:14,269 --> 00:33:12,299
people

902
00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:14,279
see through their biases you know what I

903
00:33:17,210 --> 00:33:15,720
mean like everyone's seeing it through

904
00:33:19,850 --> 00:33:17,220
filters people are having different

905
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:19,860
experiences even in this conference it's

906
00:33:23,930 --> 00:33:22,320
wild yeah well I mean think about with

907
00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:23,940
Hudson Valley where people

908
00:33:27,950 --> 00:33:25,620
experience like legitimate spiritual

909
00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:27,960
experiences right they had these like

910
00:33:31,789 --> 00:33:29,700
Consciousness shifting experiences

911
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:31,799
because

912
00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:33,480
um what they were witnessing at the time

913
00:33:39,769 --> 00:33:36,419
to them was unidentifiable and sort of

914
00:33:41,090 --> 00:33:39,779
broke apart their ideology I just um the

915
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:41,100
different lenses people can view the

916
00:33:45,169 --> 00:33:42,720
same thing through it's really strange

917
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:45,179
to me but really interesting I can't

918
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,559
wait to actually like see this whole

919
00:33:51,470 --> 00:33:48,799
conference yeah it's it's it's

920
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,480
absolutely worth watching like in my

921
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:53,039
opinion completely worth watching not a

922
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:54,480
waste of time

923
00:33:57,649 --> 00:33:56,340
um you know differences in the community

924
00:33:59,570 --> 00:33:57,659
aside like it was a very well

925
00:34:01,250 --> 00:33:59,580
orchestrated event it ran on time it

926
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:01,260
started on time finished on time people

927
00:34:05,930 --> 00:34:03,360
were well behaved

928
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:05,940
um and the other thing that I'll say uh

929
00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:07,860
it give credit to the organizers for is

930
00:34:12,109 --> 00:34:09,300
it was a deliberately intimate

931
00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:12,119
conference it was like 75 people in that

932
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:15,599
Auditorium uh Science Bob was there uh

933
00:34:22,609 --> 00:34:19,200
Linda Thompson it was kind uh Leslie

934
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:22,619
Keane Anjali like I said it was like

935
00:34:27,169 --> 00:34:26,399
it just it was very interesting

936
00:34:29,329 --> 00:34:27,179
um

937
00:34:30,649 --> 00:34:29,339
and people you know like

938
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:30,659
it's

939
00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:31,980
um

940
00:34:36,889 --> 00:34:33,540
it

941
00:34:38,570 --> 00:34:36,899
like like I keep saying uh and I mean I

942
00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:38,580
hope everyone here knows I'm no

943
00:34:41,690 --> 00:34:40,260
shrinking pilot when it comes to strong

944
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:41,700
opinions if I thought it sucked or

945
00:34:45,169 --> 00:34:43,679
people were [\h__\h] I'd be like this

946
00:34:46,669 --> 00:34:45,179
[\h__\h] sucks don't bother but I thought it

947
00:34:47,930 --> 00:34:46,679
was really great like I'm going to the

948
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:47,940
December one

949
00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:49,379
um looking forward to like meeting more

950
00:34:52,490 --> 00:34:51,599
folks sort of in that space of the

951
00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:52,500
community

952
00:34:57,829 --> 00:34:54,060
um you thought you've convinced me to

953
00:34:59,450 --> 00:34:57,839
check it out yeah yeah like I mean and

954
00:35:02,089 --> 00:34:59,460
if nothing else like I always come back

955
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:04,609
and maybe this is being more generous

956
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:06,480
than is warranted I don't I have more

957
00:35:10,910 --> 00:35:08,160
naivete than I think a lot of people do

958
00:35:14,089 --> 00:35:10,920
in this community still but even

959
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:14,099
um even if stories are related that are

960
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:18,000
false or wrong or seem to be too much of

961
00:35:23,050 --> 00:35:19,440
a stretch of the imagination or whatever

962
00:35:27,230 --> 00:35:23,060
like there's still something fascinating

963
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:27,240
and about witnessing the emergence of

964
00:35:31,790 --> 00:35:29,220
myth right like like I think about like

965
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,800
Bob Lazar is a good example like to a

966
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:33,119
certain degree it doesn't even matter if

967
00:35:36,170 --> 00:35:34,500
Bob Lazar is telling a true story

968
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:36,180
because he's woven himself so

969
00:35:41,210 --> 00:35:38,880
effectively into ufology that his

970
00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:41,220
presence in the sort of community myth

971
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:44,280
in and of itself like brings attention

972
00:35:48,050 --> 00:35:46,079
on it or brings attention on himself

973
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:48,060
like just by virtue of having so

974
00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:49,740
substantially created and disseminated

975
00:35:53,630 --> 00:35:52,140
his own story so like

976
00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:53,640
that's

977
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:57,780
um in this sort of like Chaser on all

978
00:36:03,290 --> 00:36:00,000
this is I came back super gung-ho about

979
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:03,300
this idea of working or sort of not even

980
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,859
working but like thinking about the

981
00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:06,960
necessity of doing ethnography with

982
00:36:10,010 --> 00:36:08,520
experiencers like ethnographic

983
00:36:11,450 --> 00:36:10,020
interviews and research basically you

984
00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:11,460
need somebody who's going to be Alfred

985
00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:13,500
Kinsey for experiencers you know you

986
00:36:16,670 --> 00:36:14,940
need someone who's gonna basically

987
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:16,680
conduct a ton of interviews and think

988
00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:18,780
about them thematically and I got

989
00:36:22,010 --> 00:36:20,280
pointed in the direction of this guy Ray

990
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,020
Hernandez

991
00:36:26,750 --> 00:36:24,480
um who uh I've subsequently like

992
00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:26,760
connected with he's kind of an Old Guard

993
00:36:31,370 --> 00:36:29,820
Consciousness nde Obe astral projection

994
00:36:32,930 --> 00:36:31,380
kind of guy

995
00:36:34,430 --> 00:36:32,940
um tends to see a lot of experience or

996
00:36:36,109 --> 00:36:34,440
phenomena through the lens of like kind

997
00:36:38,569 --> 00:36:36,119
of the classic spiritual emergence

998
00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:38,579
Kundalini Awakening Etc

999
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:39,900
um so I've connected with him he's

1000
00:36:43,310 --> 00:36:41,280
trying to bring out some new research

1001
00:36:46,130 --> 00:36:43,320
from CCRI which has been like the stink

1002
00:36:48,050 --> 00:36:46,140
tank of a pretty pretty well established

1003
00:36:49,970 --> 00:36:48,060
academics

1004
00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:49,980
um cross-disciplinary

1005
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,200
um and experiencers kind of writing up

1006
00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:54,480
pretty I I would characterize this

1007
00:36:57,770 --> 00:36:56,040
fairly rigorous not only personal

1008
00:37:00,410 --> 00:36:57,780
accounts but like Research into the

1009
00:37:01,069 --> 00:37:00,420
nature of Consciousness and reality

1010
00:37:02,569 --> 00:37:01,079
um

1011
00:37:04,250 --> 00:37:02,579
so that sort of was the cool little

1012
00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:04,260
Chaser on this little experience who's

1013
00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:06,300
winding up connected with CCRI and Rey

1014
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:08,820
uh over the last week

1015
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:15,290
it's everybody else been up to you

1016
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:18,720
just in life yeah come on yeah anything

1017
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:20,640
bad it's been a while what are you up to

1018
00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:23,220
oh God it's so hard to step out of the

1019
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:26,480
UFO mentality and step into real life

1020
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:29,820
but uh yeah no yeah just been uh doing

1021
00:37:34,490 --> 00:37:32,640
work and stuff but um let's not talk

1022
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:34,500
about real life that's why we're here is

1023
00:37:40,370 --> 00:37:37,440
to ignore real life yeah escapism that's

1024
00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:40,380
why we talk about UFOs right yes but I

1025
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:41,820
thought that what uh you were saying Lee

1026
00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:42,720
about

1027
00:37:47,329 --> 00:37:45,720
um the way that myth gets constructed uh

1028
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:47,339
in real time is really interesting

1029
00:37:50,990 --> 00:37:49,440
because it's like with them like

1030
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:51,000
Michigan thing we were just talking

1031
00:37:56,270 --> 00:37:53,520
about that uh this interesting thing

1032
00:37:59,210 --> 00:37:56,280
happens where the people who end up

1033
00:38:02,030 --> 00:37:59,220
being sort of the mythical figures that

1034
00:38:05,329 --> 00:38:02,040
lead the uh public interest end up

1035
00:38:07,490 --> 00:38:05,339
bringing in all of these things that are

1036
00:38:09,470 --> 00:38:07,500
not necessarily true into the story

1037
00:38:10,970 --> 00:38:09,480
because they're memorable and then when

1038
00:38:13,310 --> 00:38:10,980
somebody comes into it and starts

1039
00:38:14,990 --> 00:38:13,320
observing it even if there's a kernel of

1040
00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:15,000
Truth at the heart of it I.E like Bob

1041
00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:17,400
was R was working as a contractor at

1042
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:19,700
Area 51 before it was a publicly known

1043
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:23,160
that's pretty interesting it I mean and

1044
00:38:26,510 --> 00:38:24,720
then he is spreading his own lies and

1045
00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:26,520
stuff or whatever I don't want to insult

1046
00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:28,020
anybody but he says things that aren't

1047
00:38:32,990 --> 00:38:30,140
verified and then it uh

1048
00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:33,000
I know and then it invalidates the

1049
00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:34,260
entire

1050
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:35,880
perspective on the whole thing though

1051
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:38,160
right right so it's all thrown away or

1052
00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:40,260
it's all good and like that's something

1053
00:38:45,410 --> 00:38:42,780
that I see as potentially emerging

1054
00:38:47,089 --> 00:38:45,420
um from the Lake Michigan thing too with

1055
00:38:48,410 --> 00:38:47,099
like the radar operator like even if he

1056
00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:48,420
was a hundred percent reliable

1057
00:38:54,109 --> 00:38:51,300
historically if they cut and pasted his

1058
00:38:56,270 --> 00:38:54,119
one comment out of place now it's part

1059
00:38:58,250 --> 00:38:56,280
of the myth and now he's unreliable and

1060
00:38:59,870 --> 00:38:58,260
now what we throw out all the radar it's

1061
00:39:02,089 --> 00:38:59,880
like and that's just what happened even

1062
00:39:04,490 --> 00:39:02,099
though it's legit originally in certain

1063
00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:04,500
ways that you can invalidate the rest of

1064
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:06,240
it that was why I wanted to get on here

1065
00:39:10,250 --> 00:39:07,680
quick and kind of nip this in the butter

1066
00:39:12,650 --> 00:39:10,260
at least throw my perspectives out there

1067
00:39:15,770 --> 00:39:12,660
at least so someone might hear it and

1068
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:15,780
consider it because I there is there is

1069
00:39:19,609 --> 00:39:17,460
a good case underneath this stuff but

1070
00:39:21,950 --> 00:39:19,619
when you when you pile this other kind

1071
00:39:22,730 --> 00:39:21,960
of stuff on and make it more fantastic I

1072
00:39:24,829 --> 00:39:22,740
just

1073
00:39:34,430 --> 00:39:24,839
I I hope that the real good information

1074
00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:36,410
but thinking so there's this theory that

1075
00:39:41,089 --> 00:39:39,720
started emerging in like 2016 and 2017

1076
00:39:43,849 --> 00:39:41,099
um in a lot of these like information

1077
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:43,859
science circles about the Liars dividend

1078
00:39:51,170 --> 00:39:48,320
which is this idea that false news

1079
00:39:52,849 --> 00:39:51,180
benefits from a boost in legitimacy when

1080
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:52,859
there's lots of conversation about how

1081
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:55,320
fake media exists

1082
00:39:58,970 --> 00:39:56,880
um and like you see this it also happens

1083
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:58,980
the other way which is um I think Joe

1084
00:40:02,930 --> 00:40:00,960
Rogan is a perfect example of leveraging

1085
00:40:05,089 --> 00:40:02,940
the buyer's dividend in a very

1086
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:05,099
advantageous way for his his sort of

1087
00:40:09,770 --> 00:40:07,920
media Empire which is he Stacks his

1088
00:40:12,650 --> 00:40:09,780
guest list with generally legitimate

1089
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:12,660
people but then maybe 20 of them aren't

1090
00:40:18,410 --> 00:40:15,119
but the presence of the majority of

1091
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:18,420
legitimacy confers legitimacy on the

1092
00:40:22,609 --> 00:40:21,359
rest of his guests that makes sense I

1093
00:40:24,410 --> 00:40:22,619
like yeah

1094
00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:24,420
if we see it in ufology all the time

1095
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:26,700
right like we see this notion that like

1096
00:40:31,550 --> 00:40:29,280
proximity to a reliable source a

1097
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:31,560
reliable bit of information seems to

1098
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:34,079
imbue questionable information or

1099
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:36,000
individuals with a sense of legitimacy

1100
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:39,599
just by like proximity right that's what

1101
00:40:42,890 --> 00:40:41,040
I think that's also kind of why I wanted

1102
00:40:44,810 --> 00:40:42,900
to stress that like uh TV shows like

1103
00:40:47,089 --> 00:40:44,820
Unsolved Mysteries are for entertainment

1104
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:47,099
and they are telling a story on top of

1105
00:40:50,510 --> 00:40:48,480
what's already happening there and I

1106
00:40:52,310 --> 00:40:50,520
think a lot of people do think like

1107
00:40:53,450 --> 00:40:52,320
I remember people talking about the TMZ

1108
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:53,460
special when it came out a couple years

1109
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:55,920
ago uh talking about like being good

1110
00:41:00,290 --> 00:40:57,839
information like people were researching

1111
00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:00,300
by watching these these UFO specials in

1112
00:41:05,930 --> 00:41:02,640
these UFO TV shows and I don't think

1113
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:05,940
that that's the way to do it right

1114
00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:08,400
right yeah well and that's um it's

1115
00:41:12,829 --> 00:41:10,680
probably a good spot to uh start it's a

1116
00:41:15,730 --> 00:41:12,839
good segue yeah discussion on the

1117
00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:15,740
scientific method philosophy of science

1118
00:41:21,470 --> 00:41:18,839
observation versus interpretation all

1119
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:21,480
that good stuff drop it yeah Campbell

1120
00:41:25,310 --> 00:41:23,640
you're the man of the hour okay yeah

1121
00:41:27,710 --> 00:41:25,320
right

1122
00:41:29,870 --> 00:41:27,720
um yeah and that's what got me uh kind

1123
00:41:33,770 --> 00:41:29,880
of interested in this whole subject of

1124
00:41:37,310 --> 00:41:33,780
UAP originally was uh it was from sort

1125
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:37,320
of zero to a hundred I grew up without

1126
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:40,260
any religion I didn't believe in ghosts

1127
00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:42,480
I didn't believe in UFOs sea monsters

1128
00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:45,119
anything like I had zero uh

1129
00:41:49,730 --> 00:41:47,700
understanding of the Paranormal all of

1130
00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:49,740
that none of that was a part of my uh

1131
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:51,660
world view just completely absent not

1132
00:41:57,710 --> 00:41:53,520
even like uh looking down on or anything

1133
00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:57,720
just zero engagement whatsoever and then

1134
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:58,560
um

1135
00:42:04,430 --> 00:42:01,200
during the virus when everything got

1136
00:42:08,690 --> 00:42:04,440
locked down things seemed all crazy and

1137
00:42:10,430 --> 00:42:08,700
then President Obama came out on

1138
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:10,440
um the uh Late Late Show with James

1139
00:42:15,470 --> 00:42:13,920
Corden in May 2021 and he gave a very

1140
00:42:18,050 --> 00:42:15,480
strange interview that caught my

1141
00:42:19,550 --> 00:42:18,060
attention for the first time because I

1142
00:42:22,370 --> 00:42:19,560
had followed Obama through my entire

1143
00:42:24,410 --> 00:42:22,380
University like he was like my president

1144
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:24,420
growing up I'm Canadian but like he was

1145
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:27,240
the president you know and uh it was

1146
00:42:31,310 --> 00:42:29,280
just so strange to have him come out in

1147
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:31,320
the middle of a virus with all this UFO

1148
00:42:35,690 --> 00:42:32,880
stuff in the like in New York Times

1149
00:42:37,609 --> 00:42:35,700
stuff and then he's saying well no there

1150
00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:37,619
there are objects up there that we don't

1151
00:42:41,630 --> 00:42:39,240
really know what they are and he doesn't

1152
00:42:44,569 --> 00:42:41,640
even stop there he says we can't explain

1153
00:42:46,310 --> 00:42:44,579
how they move their trajectories they

1154
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:46,320
did not have an easily explainable

1155
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:49,200
pattern so people still take seriously

1156
00:42:52,609 --> 00:42:50,880
try to figure out what those things are

1157
00:42:55,609 --> 00:42:52,619
and

1158
00:42:56,990 --> 00:42:55,619
that just struck me so weird because I

1159
00:42:59,809 --> 00:42:57,000
would expect him to say the first part

1160
00:43:01,970 --> 00:42:59,819
oh yeah there are UFOs out there and

1161
00:43:04,430 --> 00:43:01,980
what I couldn't figure out was why would

1162
00:43:07,550 --> 00:43:04,440
Obama draw people's attention to this

1163
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,560
subject when I knew academically it was

1164
00:43:12,109 --> 00:43:09,359
associated with like you know white

1165
00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:12,119
supremacy uh Terror the FBI has it on

1166
00:43:15,790 --> 00:43:13,920
the same slides as like terrorism and

1167
00:43:19,069 --> 00:43:15,800
stuff as a threat to National Security

1168
00:43:21,050 --> 00:43:19,079
incredible so it's like why is Obama

1169
00:43:23,329 --> 00:43:21,060
sort of putting kindling in this at all

1170
00:43:25,010 --> 00:43:23,339
it made absolutely no sense and as well

1171
00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:25,020
as that it was the obvious thing that

1172
00:43:28,849 --> 00:43:27,720
it's like I feel very confident I

1173
00:43:31,069 --> 00:43:28,859
wouldn't say certain but I felt very

1174
00:43:34,010 --> 00:43:31,079
confident that the United States has the

1175
00:43:35,870 --> 00:43:34,020
capacity to identify objects in Earth's

1176
00:43:38,270 --> 00:43:35,880
atmosphere for the most part

1177
00:43:40,490 --> 00:43:38,280
and so my assumption was like if they're

1178
00:43:42,589 --> 00:43:40,500
like all these alien spaceships or

1179
00:43:43,550 --> 00:43:42,599
whatever coming in here like they would

1180
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:43,560
be getting

1181
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:45,960
served probably and so why would Obama

1182
00:43:49,069 --> 00:43:47,280
be saying he doesn't know what they are

1183
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:49,079
why would he be drawing attention to

1184
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:50,400
that if the U.S can't identify something

1185
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:52,920
makes no sense right so that was sort of

1186
00:43:56,030 --> 00:43:54,480
the Baseline it was like this makes

1187
00:43:57,950 --> 00:43:56,040
absolutely no sense according to my

1188
00:44:01,069 --> 00:43:57,960
world view so it was like it broke into

1189
00:44:01,670 --> 00:44:01,079
my attention for the first time that way

1190
00:44:03,530 --> 00:44:01,680
um

1191
00:44:06,349 --> 00:44:03,540
and so that was sort of the heart of it

1192
00:44:08,510 --> 00:44:06,359
and then I started doing research and uh

1193
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:08,520
that was what turned into my website

1194
00:44:13,790 --> 00:44:11,460
uapstudy.com

1195
00:44:16,010 --> 00:44:13,800
um yeah and I guess I could just start

1196
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,020
getting into it um have you guys had any

1197
00:44:20,930 --> 00:44:18,480
I'd be curious actually what do you guys

1198
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,940
have you had a moment of sort of being

1199
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,280
pulled into something brand new that you

1200
00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:24,960
didn't have any exposure to historically

1201
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:27,300
uh what about you Leah

1202
00:44:32,990 --> 00:44:28,560
you know

1203
00:44:35,530 --> 00:44:33,000
I would say UFOs but like that's what

1204
00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:35,540
what I've only been pulled into is like

1205
00:44:41,390 --> 00:44:39,180
the post 2017 discourse is totally new

1206
00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:41,400
to me because my experience with UFOs

1207
00:44:48,890 --> 00:44:44,880
was like 1990s like X-Files Art Bell

1208
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:48,900
stuff not Tic Tacs and you know

1209
00:44:52,490 --> 00:44:49,920
obviously the government's always

1210
00:44:55,130 --> 00:44:52,500
factored into these ideas but it seems

1211
00:44:57,230 --> 00:44:55,140
the post 2017 landscape of the subject

1212
00:44:59,329 --> 00:44:57,240
is predominantly sort of government and

1213
00:45:01,790 --> 00:44:59,339
Military driven

1214
00:45:04,250 --> 00:45:01,800
um that's true I um I've explained this

1215
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:04,260
a couple times but I was on like I had

1216
00:45:08,329 --> 00:45:05,760
stepped away from all paranormal

1217
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:08,339
subjects uh like five six years ago and

1218
00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:10,680
I I was in between jobs at the time when

1219
00:45:16,910 --> 00:45:13,260
uh when that 2017 thing came out that

1220
00:45:18,650 --> 00:45:16,920
kind of got me re-interested too what is

1221
00:45:20,990 --> 00:45:18,660
it with UFOs and being an unemployed

1222
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:21,000
degenerate like that's what got me into

1223
00:45:24,770 --> 00:45:22,980
it like I don't I don't I didn't have a

1224
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:24,780
job and I was like well I think I'm

1225
00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:27,200
gonna get into Twitter and into UFOs

1226
00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:31,140
the two big brain Hobbies of course like

1227
00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:32,940
I had been interested in UFOs as a kid

1228
00:45:36,410 --> 00:45:34,319
growing up like you mentioned too like

1229
00:45:38,210 --> 00:45:36,420
X-Files unself mystery sightings all

1230
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:38,220
that kind of stuff in the 80s and 90s

1231
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:40,680
but that did bring me back in I mean

1232
00:45:44,030 --> 00:45:42,960
that headline was pretty attention

1233
00:45:48,250 --> 00:45:44,040
grabbing

1234
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:51,230
it seems pretty significant at the time

1235
00:45:55,069 --> 00:45:52,800
um before we got into a lot of the

1236
00:45:57,170 --> 00:45:55,079
details of it obviously but uh but yeah

1237
00:45:58,609 --> 00:45:57,180
I mean that that was kind of a I think

1238
00:46:00,170 --> 00:45:58,619
that's a lot of people's entry point now

1239
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:00,180
or at least a lot of the uh the current

1240
00:46:04,609 --> 00:46:02,520
people that we interact with on a daily

1241
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,619
basis like part of the the new community

1242
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:07,200
is uh we're all kind of introduced with

1243
00:46:12,770 --> 00:46:10,319
this it definitely made a splash

1244
00:46:16,010 --> 00:46:12,780
yeah what about you Louise

1245
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:16,020
uh probably so researching like

1246
00:46:21,170 --> 00:46:19,440
blavatsky and that sort of um what

1247
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:21,180
triggered that was there a specific

1248
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:24,240
incident are you a theosophist Lewis you

1249
00:46:37,510 --> 00:46:29,569
um

1250
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:37,520
I read a few of Jacque Valley's books

1251
00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:40,319
but then um it was a probably Jacques

1252
00:46:43,370 --> 00:46:41,940
Valley kind of got me into thinking

1253
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:43,380
about

1254
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:45,839
um the psychological aspects of the

1255
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:47,040
whole

1256
00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:50,160
um

1257
00:46:53,630 --> 00:46:52,260
but yeah I guess I guess it was Jacques

1258
00:46:55,010 --> 00:46:53,640
Valley uh even though I don't really

1259
00:46:57,770 --> 00:46:55,020
credit his

1260
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:57,780
take ultimately I think I'm ready some

1261
00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:59,599
points good points

1262
00:47:02,569 --> 00:47:01,200
yes

1263
00:47:04,010 --> 00:47:02,579
um and yeah you know and that was

1264
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:04,020
interesting to me too because the New

1265
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:06,540
York Times article had like come over

1266
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,119
across my radar uh but it didn't like

1267
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,280
Drop grab my attention I kind of just

1268
00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:13,440
like was like uh whatever I remember in

1269
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:16,740
2018 in the spring with my brother I

1270
00:47:20,930 --> 00:47:18,720
pulled up the video that's the famous

1271
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:20,940
like the gimbal or whatever and I was

1272
00:47:24,349 --> 00:47:23,040
like this thing looks weird eh and we

1273
00:47:26,210 --> 00:47:24,359
were just sitting there being like this

1274
00:47:28,970 --> 00:47:26,220
is a weird looking thing and like the

1275
00:47:30,349 --> 00:47:28,980
Pilot's emotion made it interesting but

1276
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:30,359
I forgot about it and just like didn't

1277
00:47:33,410 --> 00:47:31,680
look at it ever again because it was

1278
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:33,420
like okay whatever wait to see what

1279
00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:35,880
happens see what they find that right

1280
00:47:40,790 --> 00:47:38,700
yeah so Campbell so I I've read I've

1281
00:47:44,030 --> 00:47:40,800
read uapstudy.com I think it's an

1282
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,040
awesome very impeccably well researched

1283
00:47:46,809 --> 00:47:46,079
well presented

1284
00:47:53,089 --> 00:47:46,819
um

1285
00:47:55,609 --> 00:47:53,099
post 2017 ufology sort of what brought

1286
00:47:57,290 --> 00:47:55,619
us to this space the the research that's

1287
00:47:58,730 --> 00:47:57,300
been done on it

1288
00:48:00,410 --> 00:47:58,740
um particularly through you know as

1289
00:48:02,329 --> 00:48:00,420
you've mentioned this lens of basically

1290
00:48:06,109 --> 00:48:02,339
like Plasma Research

1291
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,119
um in physics and it's with this not

1292
00:48:10,609 --> 00:48:07,920
with knowing the structure of this

1293
00:48:13,069 --> 00:48:10,619
initiative that you've crafted I am

1294
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:13,079
curious to know what your views are on

1295
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:15,119
like these psychosocial phenomena or

1296
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:17,280
like the valet or mythology side of

1297
00:48:22,010 --> 00:48:19,859
things because you know like like that

1298
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:22,020
to me is the really kind of like

1299
00:48:25,790 --> 00:48:24,780
um amorphous side of the community

1300
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:25,800
um I don't think we see too many

1301
00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:28,920
government reports on it and uh I'm

1302
00:48:31,370 --> 00:48:30,660
super curious what your views are on

1303
00:48:37,849 --> 00:48:31,380
that

1304
00:48:40,430 --> 00:48:37,859
uh aspect of it in the final uh chapter

1305
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,440
of the website chapter 10. so

1306
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:42,240
um it might be jumping the gun a bit to

1307
00:48:47,150 --> 00:48:45,119
start with that but uh

1308
00:48:49,849 --> 00:48:47,160
um I find that an interesting element so

1309
00:48:51,230 --> 00:48:49,859
I'll just uh very briefly touch on sort

1310
00:48:52,609 --> 00:48:51,240
of the the essence of what you're

1311
00:48:54,530 --> 00:48:52,619
describing

1312
00:48:56,809 --> 00:48:54,540
um and Jason colovito actually did this

1313
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:56,819
very effectively on Mick West's podcast

1314
00:49:01,550 --> 00:48:59,599
when he was on there talking with him

1315
00:49:05,630 --> 00:49:01,560
basically

1316
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:05,640
um there was a merger in the 20th

1317
00:49:11,930 --> 00:49:08,640
century of a variety of folklore

1318
00:49:15,230 --> 00:49:11,940
traditions of seeing luminous objects uh

1319
00:49:17,950 --> 00:49:15,240
behaving in unusual ways and

1320
00:49:20,809 --> 00:49:17,960
um essentially this emergence of the UFO

1321
00:49:22,730 --> 00:49:20,819
uh as uh you know concurrent with the

1322
00:49:25,790 --> 00:49:22,740
end of World War II all of that stuff

1323
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:25,800
and an interpret valeted such an

1324
00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:28,079
effective job after the fact starting in

1325
00:49:33,530 --> 00:49:30,380
the 60s and moving forward of

1326
00:49:35,870 --> 00:49:33,540
retrospectively observing the described

1327
00:49:38,809 --> 00:49:35,880
features from the subjective perspective

1328
00:49:41,690 --> 00:49:38,819
of the experiences and then going

1329
00:49:44,510 --> 00:49:41,700
through history especially Western uh

1330
00:49:48,050 --> 00:49:44,520
folklore and seeing extremely close

1331
00:49:51,410 --> 00:49:48,060
parallels uh which is a very uh to um

1332
00:49:53,390 --> 00:49:51,420
elves and ghosts and fairies and all

1333
00:49:54,650 --> 00:49:53,400
this stuff very similar descriptions and

1334
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:54,660
it's uh similar to what you were

1335
00:49:57,650 --> 00:49:55,680
actually describing about that

1336
00:50:02,270 --> 00:49:57,660
individual at that conference I suppose

1337
00:50:03,770 --> 00:50:02,280
these subjective similarities

1338
00:50:06,290 --> 00:50:03,780
um yeah so that's a very interesting

1339
00:50:08,990 --> 00:50:06,300
element and it's the observation versus

1340
00:50:10,430 --> 00:50:09,000
interpretation that drives all of this

1341
00:50:12,290 --> 00:50:10,440
you know because it's like okay starting

1342
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:12,300
with Obama president former president

1343
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:14,040
Obama he's saying like we're observing

1344
00:50:17,450 --> 00:50:15,420
these things and they're behaving in

1345
00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:17,460
ways that are hard to explain he could

1346
00:50:21,290 --> 00:50:19,980
be talking about balloons he could be

1347
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:21,300
talking about whatever it's not like oh

1348
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:22,740
this is definitely something new and

1349
00:50:26,930 --> 00:50:24,720
wild and uh could be aliens he never

1350
00:50:28,670 --> 00:50:26,940
said anything like that but strange that

1351
00:50:30,290 --> 00:50:28,680
he even introduced maybe you should look

1352
00:50:31,450 --> 00:50:30,300
at this even

1353
00:50:34,730 --> 00:50:31,460
um

1354
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:34,740
so after Obama said that I said I read

1355
00:50:38,270 --> 00:50:36,240
the New York Times article meaningfully

1356
00:50:39,950 --> 00:50:38,280
for the first time I got an essence of

1357
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:39,960
what was being described I became

1358
00:50:44,030 --> 00:50:42,000
familiar with the idea of like the

1359
00:50:45,770 --> 00:50:44,040
Nimitz Tic Tac and that was very strange

1360
00:50:47,690 --> 00:50:45,780
to me I didn't I couldn't understand

1361
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:47,700
what I was reading really because I was

1362
00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:49,920
like this isn't like a alien spaceship

1363
00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:51,960
from anything that I've sort of picked

1364
00:50:56,809 --> 00:50:54,660
up on historically right so

1365
00:50:58,430 --> 00:50:56,819
uh I was confused by what was being

1366
00:51:00,829 --> 00:50:58,440
described

1367
00:51:02,569 --> 00:51:00,839
um and then I started doing just like

1368
00:51:03,230 --> 00:51:02,579
some generic

1369
00:51:06,829 --> 00:51:03,240
um

1370
00:51:10,670 --> 00:51:06,839
searches on like research databases uh

1371
00:51:12,410 --> 00:51:10,680
for UAP related Publications in physics

1372
00:51:13,849 --> 00:51:12,420
journals Natural Science journals Earth

1373
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:13,859
Sciences journals

1374
00:51:20,150 --> 00:51:16,559
and that's when these very interesting

1375
00:51:22,849 --> 00:51:20,160
published physics papers were coming up

1376
00:51:24,530 --> 00:51:22,859
um and then the most important one the

1377
00:51:27,530 --> 00:51:24,540
first one that I found that was the most

1378
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:27,540
significant was the one that I lead uh

1379
00:51:32,030 --> 00:51:29,700
the website with in following the

1380
00:51:35,049 --> 00:51:32,040
introduction which was

1381
00:51:37,730 --> 00:51:35,059
um to investigate or not to investigate

1382
00:51:40,849 --> 00:51:37,740
is the intro of the title it was

1383
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:40,859
published in I believe 2016 in

1384
00:51:43,609 --> 00:51:41,400
um

1385
00:51:46,250 --> 00:51:43,619
I can't remember the Journal of uh

1386
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:46,260
Frontiers in Earth Science by

1387
00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:50,160
Quran and faridi and it describes a

1388
00:51:54,530 --> 00:51:52,619
series of field study observations in a

1389
00:51:58,010 --> 00:51:54,540
variety of places around the world

1390
00:52:01,089 --> 00:51:58,020
and it talks about luminous objects in

1391
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:01,099
the Earth's atmosphere behaving in ways

1392
00:52:06,410 --> 00:52:05,280
that are inconsistent with

1393
00:52:10,430 --> 00:52:06,420
um

1394
00:52:12,770 --> 00:52:10,440
previously recognized objects it's a

1395
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:12,780
near instantaneous accelerations to 8

1396
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:14,720
000 meters per second

1397
00:52:20,809 --> 00:52:18,240
very variety of colors all of the things

1398
00:52:23,329 --> 00:52:20,819
do the talking point thing about uaps

1399
00:52:25,809 --> 00:52:23,339
wait what'd you think will you describe

1400
00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:25,819
them all all the characters oh yes

1401
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:28,500
that's the introduction of the UK

1402
00:52:34,190 --> 00:52:31,260
Ministry of Defense report right yes yes

1403
00:52:36,109 --> 00:52:34,200
uh oh God yeah I haven't said it in like

1404
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:36,119
a month or two now I'm like you know

1405
00:52:45,049 --> 00:52:43,549
yeah yeah let me capable of hovering

1406
00:52:46,970 --> 00:52:45,059
Landing accelerating to exceptional

1407
00:52:48,589 --> 00:52:46,980
velocities and Vanishing that can help

1408
00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:48,599
maneuver any known vehicle Mander

1409
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:49,700
unmanned

1410
00:52:54,530 --> 00:52:52,079
yes this game's perfect but that's from

1411
00:52:56,690 --> 00:52:54,540
the United but uh yeah so this paper

1412
00:52:58,790 --> 00:52:56,700
published in 2016 it came up when I was

1413
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,800
just looking up UAP in a research

1414
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:00,480
database it's a peer-reviewed physics

1415
00:53:06,109 --> 00:53:03,599
paper and it lists all of the features

1416
00:53:09,049 --> 00:53:06,119
uh of what you'd think would be like oh

1417
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:09,059
a UFO and then it says

1418
00:53:15,290 --> 00:53:12,480
um there has been a spectrographic uh

1419
00:53:17,329 --> 00:53:15,300
evidence that has verified conclusively

1420
00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:17,339
in a paper in physical reviews letter

1421
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:22,140
review letters in 2014 of a uh confirmed

1422
00:53:27,770 --> 00:53:25,020
observation of a ball lightning which is

1423
00:53:32,510 --> 00:53:27,780
was the nucleus was four feet across and

1424
00:53:35,210 --> 00:53:32,520
the Luminosity was 16 feet across as uh

1425
00:53:37,849 --> 00:53:35,220
been verified that ball lightning can be

1426
00:53:40,609 --> 00:53:37,859
that large and do exist in Earth's

1427
00:53:42,530 --> 00:53:40,619
atmosphere and when I read that and I

1428
00:53:44,329 --> 00:53:42,540
read this review paper showing all of

1429
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:44,339
the different field study

1430
00:53:48,049 --> 00:53:46,980
you know information describing these

1431
00:53:50,809 --> 00:53:48,059
objects

1432
00:53:52,490 --> 00:53:50,819
I was I didn't understand what I was

1433
00:53:54,109 --> 00:53:52,500
reading because

1434
00:53:55,849 --> 00:53:54,119
nobody in the New York Times said

1435
00:53:58,430 --> 00:53:55,859
anything about ball lightning existing

1436
00:54:01,309 --> 00:53:58,440
if it has been verified conclusively

1437
00:54:04,010 --> 00:54:01,319
that luminous objects with this variety

1438
00:54:05,150 --> 00:54:04,020
of features exist and there's atmosphere

1439
00:54:07,490 --> 00:54:05,160
it should be part of the main

1440
00:54:09,470 --> 00:54:07,500
conversation shouldn't it and yet it is

1441
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:09,480
not and that's interesting to me so I

1442
00:54:12,049 --> 00:54:10,800
started looking into it in more depth

1443
00:54:15,170 --> 00:54:12,059
because of that

1444
00:54:17,690 --> 00:54:15,180
right I mean this uh this isn't a new

1445
00:54:20,210 --> 00:54:17,700
connection either I mean people have

1446
00:54:24,109 --> 00:54:20,220
been saying this since the 50s right

1447
00:54:26,569 --> 00:54:24,119
uh at least the 50s yes uh uh Arthur C

1448
00:54:28,910 --> 00:54:26,579
Clarke uh wrote a series of papers in

1449
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:28,920
the 50s describing that he's quite

1450
00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:31,380
convinced that based on the described

1451
00:54:35,990 --> 00:54:33,660
features which were the same exact

1452
00:54:38,990 --> 00:54:36,000
features including what he said as near

1453
00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:39,000
instantaneous silent accelerations yep

1454
00:54:43,010 --> 00:54:40,920
led him to conclude that these were

1455
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:43,020
likely to be plasmoids I.E ball

1456
00:54:45,710 --> 00:54:44,400
lightning

1457
00:54:47,329 --> 00:54:45,720
um and they're silent and they're in

1458
00:54:49,970 --> 00:54:47,339
their instantaneous acceleration because

1459
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:49,980
they are a ball of just pure energy and

1460
00:54:53,630 --> 00:54:52,319
basically the energy cuts through the

1461
00:54:56,569 --> 00:54:53,640
atmosphere the end air doesn't have to

1462
00:54:58,430 --> 00:54:56,579
go around it so there's no Sonic booms

1463
00:55:01,190 --> 00:54:58,440
um and they use those on they use Plasma

1464
00:55:03,170 --> 00:55:01,200
on aircraft stealth aircraft now uh or

1465
00:55:04,130 --> 00:55:03,180
at least are developing the systems to

1466
00:55:06,109 --> 00:55:04,140
produce that exact same effect

1467
00:55:07,849 --> 00:55:06,119
eliminating any Sonic Boom while

1468
00:55:10,730 --> 00:55:07,859
traveling

1469
00:55:12,410 --> 00:55:10,740
um well these uh these uh

1470
00:55:14,329 --> 00:55:12,420
characteristics that you're describing

1471
00:55:16,130 --> 00:55:14,339
sound like a lot of classical cases in

1472
00:55:17,690 --> 00:55:16,140
fact they sound a lot like what was

1473
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:17,700
described in the Lake Michigan case that

1474
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:19,440
we were talking about before yeah yeah

1475
00:55:23,809 --> 00:55:21,119
and there are okay and this has got

1476
00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:23,819
interesting because there are published

1477
00:55:30,049 --> 00:55:26,640
field studies for example from hezdala

1478
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:30,059
Norway in 2004 published in the um

1479
00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:32,720
Journal of um

1480
00:55:38,930 --> 00:55:35,460
exploration thank you yes it's not the

1481
00:55:43,010 --> 00:55:38,940
it's not an excellent publication it

1482
00:55:45,049 --> 00:55:43,020
yeah and it was it's dedicated to

1483
00:55:46,910 --> 00:55:45,059
um like Frontier science but they also

1484
00:55:47,870 --> 00:55:46,920
include things that are like Paranormal

1485
00:55:50,270 --> 00:55:47,880
and stuff it doesn't have a great

1486
00:55:52,790 --> 00:55:50,280
reputation so uh you can't lean on this

1487
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:52,800
paper hard but it is it's not Adventure

1488
00:55:57,890 --> 00:55:54,720
in other words it's not physical review

1489
00:56:07,010 --> 00:55:57,900
letters from 2014. um and which confirms

1490
00:56:12,530 --> 00:56:08,930
um but and there's a third ineffable

1491
00:56:14,690 --> 00:56:12,540
thing yes exactly and that's uh isn't

1492
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:14,700
that uh appropriate for the reality of

1493
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:18,780
UFOs right yes yes

1494
00:56:23,569 --> 00:56:20,400
um and so there are a variety of field

1495
00:56:26,030 --> 00:56:23,579
studies there was a bunch of reports uh

1496
00:56:28,250 --> 00:56:26,040
in hezdalen the sign like you know

1497
00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:28,260
legitimate physical scientist from Italy

1498
00:56:32,089 --> 00:56:30,359
went there from actually the medicina

1499
00:56:34,569 --> 00:56:32,099
radio telescope study researchers they

1500
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:34,579
were a bunch of equipment up there

1501
00:56:40,490 --> 00:56:38,640
vlf receivers very low frequency radio

1502
00:56:41,750 --> 00:56:40,500
receivers all kinds of radio equipment

1503
00:56:43,630 --> 00:56:41,760
to sort of pick it up because they're

1504
00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:43,640
familiar with radio like energy

1505
00:56:48,049 --> 00:56:46,140
Transmissions right they got a bunch of

1506
00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:48,059
interesting observations that are

1507
00:56:51,710 --> 00:56:49,380
consistent with the sort of description

1508
00:56:53,470 --> 00:56:51,720
so we would uh expect they didn't get

1509
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:53,480
high enough resolution

1510
00:56:58,010 --> 00:56:56,160
spectrographic evidence or radar returns

1511
00:57:02,710 --> 00:56:58,020
or anything to say like this is proven

1512
00:57:06,109 --> 00:57:02,720
sure so it's just a big pile of evidence

1513
00:57:08,690 --> 00:57:06,119
that doesn't conclude anything until we

1514
00:57:10,670 --> 00:57:08,700
have 2014 which is proof that the

1515
00:57:13,010 --> 00:57:10,680
objects can be that big but it was a

1516
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:13,020
brief observation and that object did

1517
00:57:16,490 --> 00:57:14,640
not demonstrate the most maybe

1518
00:57:18,589 --> 00:57:16,500
interesting elements we didn't see it

1519
00:57:21,170 --> 00:57:18,599
instantaneously accelerate we didn't see

1520
00:57:23,210 --> 00:57:21,180
it do all these other things so we know

1521
00:57:26,210 --> 00:57:23,220
that there are luminous objects four

1522
00:57:28,190 --> 00:57:26,220
feet to 16 feet in diameter plus the

1523
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:28,200
science shows that these things can be

1524
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:30,960
as big as the energy allows for we know

1525
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:31,920
that those things exist in the

1526
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:35,520
atmosphere there so my reasoning was

1527
00:57:40,609 --> 00:57:37,920
seems like this should be

1528
00:57:42,349 --> 00:57:40,619
for the most extraordinary instances for

1529
00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:42,359
which everything else is discounted and

1530
00:57:48,410 --> 00:57:44,760
people are saying therefore aliens

1531
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:48,420
it feels like this should probably be in

1532
00:57:54,710 --> 00:57:51,119
the middle there before aliens and the

1533
00:57:57,530 --> 00:57:54,720
fact that it is not is just uh at this

1534
00:57:59,930 --> 00:57:57,540
point anthropologically fascinating to

1535
00:58:01,250 --> 00:57:59,940
me sure it's probably actually what's

1536
00:58:03,290 --> 00:58:01,260
driving most of my interest in the

1537
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:03,300
subject at this point because

1538
00:58:06,530 --> 00:58:04,079
um

1539
00:58:09,049 --> 00:58:06,540
I don't know once once you go through

1540
00:58:11,450 --> 00:58:09,059
like 200 physics papers on the subject

1541
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:11,460
of plasma and ball lightning you're

1542
00:58:17,450 --> 00:58:14,880
seeing uh so much information that

1543
00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:17,460
indicates that all of the things that

1544
00:58:22,549 --> 00:58:20,160
people have talked about so

1545
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:22,559
in such detail for so long have

1546
00:58:27,710 --> 00:58:24,960
plausible sufficient and in many cases

1547
00:58:29,870 --> 00:58:27,720
verified through uh laboratory

1548
00:58:31,790 --> 00:58:29,880
experiment uh characteristics that are

1549
00:58:33,770 --> 00:58:31,800
perfectly consistent with the historic

1550
00:58:37,069 --> 00:58:33,780
eyewitness reports of the most

1551
00:58:40,549 --> 00:58:37,079
extraordinary UFO cases and so it's like

1552
00:58:41,569 --> 00:58:40,559
a pretty neat I think because of that

1553
00:58:44,809 --> 00:58:41,579
um

1554
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:44,819
I'm continually like one of Kimbo one of

1555
00:58:48,069 --> 00:58:46,319
my favorite things you've talked about

1556
00:58:50,510 --> 00:58:48,079
is

1557
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:50,520
the interaction with the skeptic

1558
00:58:55,010 --> 00:58:53,040
Community about ball lightning

1559
00:58:57,530 --> 00:58:55,020
um and I think it's always worth calling

1560
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,540
out a second time that 2014 was when

1561
00:59:02,450 --> 00:58:59,520
ball lightning was scientifically proven

1562
00:59:05,450 --> 00:59:02,460
to exist right until then like there was

1563
00:59:06,890 --> 00:59:05,460
no you know it was thought to exist and

1564
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:06,900
believed to exist but there was no

1565
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:08,880
actual evidence of it which is pretty

1566
00:59:12,650 --> 00:59:11,040
mind-blowing right it's really cool it

1567
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,660
was contentious about ball lightning I

1568
00:59:16,730 --> 00:59:15,119
think there are a lot of Skeptics who

1569
00:59:18,410 --> 00:59:16,740
said that there wasn't enough evidence

1570
00:59:20,510 --> 00:59:18,420
do you say that like yeah this is an

1571
00:59:23,210 --> 00:59:20,520
established thing so I and people kind

1572
00:59:26,690 --> 00:59:23,220
of chalked it up with other woo almost

1573
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:26,700
yeah and Campbell you have like didn't

1574
00:59:29,390 --> 00:59:28,260
you have an experience like that I'm

1575
00:59:31,730 --> 00:59:29,400
like the Reddit skeptic Community

1576
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:31,740
talking about ball lightning

1577
00:59:38,030 --> 00:59:34,799
uh people yes I've had a few experiences

1578
00:59:41,630 --> 00:59:38,040
like that with uh Skeptics and um the

1579
00:59:43,069 --> 00:59:41,640
underlying philosophy is uh a hundred

1580
00:59:45,950 --> 00:59:43,079
percent

1581
00:59:47,569 --> 00:59:45,960
um correct in my opinion what they what

1582
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:47,579
what the Skeptics will approach this

1583
00:59:51,109 --> 00:59:49,500
subject of ball lightning with

1584
00:59:53,210 --> 00:59:51,119
and it's actually summarized very

1585
00:59:55,309 --> 00:59:53,220
effectively in a part of the website so

1586
00:59:58,789 --> 00:59:55,319
it like it's all just uh briefly say

1587
01:00:01,130 --> 00:59:58,799
like in 2006 um in skeptic magazine a

1588
01:00:02,809 --> 01:00:01,140
author wrote a whole piece arguing in

1589
01:00:03,950 --> 01:00:02,819
favor of ball lightning and they were

1590
01:00:06,289 --> 01:00:03,960
arguing that there have been so many

1591
01:00:09,530 --> 01:00:06,299
thousands of observations hundreds of uh

1592
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:09,540
High credibilities people like all these

1593
01:00:13,670 --> 01:00:11,760
photos and all this stuff and it's like

1594
01:00:16,849 --> 01:00:13,680
therefore like it's more likely than not

1595
01:00:20,510 --> 01:00:16,859
these things do exist and then

1596
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:20,520
um a response was published which says

1597
01:00:25,490 --> 01:00:23,040
that's not sufficient evidence we can't

1598
01:00:26,809 --> 01:00:25,500
take people's word for it uh you know

1599
01:00:28,490 --> 01:00:26,819
it's like

1600
01:00:29,990 --> 01:00:28,500
sir yeah anyway you could go through any

1601
01:00:31,789 --> 01:00:30,000
example it's like the number of people

1602
01:00:33,470 --> 01:00:31,799
saying they're seeing it and the

1603
01:00:35,870 --> 01:00:33,480
questionable photos don't prove a

1604
01:00:38,510 --> 01:00:35,880
phenomenon sure and like that is correct

1605
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:38,520
and so then it was from then until 2014

1606
01:00:43,970 --> 01:00:40,799
that that was sort of like okay we're

1607
01:00:45,890 --> 01:00:43,980
gonna like say we yeah what about the

1608
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:45,900
kind of

1609
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:51,839
intelligence into plasma and and I bring

1610
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:54,240
this up because one of the things I was

1611
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:57,440
asked in a Twitter space once by Jess

1612
01:01:02,210 --> 01:00:59,119
rjs

1613
01:01:05,470 --> 01:01:02,220
Twitter Jazz go kick rocks

1614
01:01:09,730 --> 01:01:05,480
um was whether or not I thought plasma

1615
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:09,740
behaved or belied uh some kind of

1616
01:01:15,890 --> 01:01:12,720
intelligence or Consciousness right

1617
01:01:18,289 --> 01:01:15,900
that's strange yes

1618
01:01:21,230 --> 01:01:18,299
um yes I was I remember I can see myself

1619
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,240
I was soaking in the hot bath like you

1620
01:01:25,370 --> 01:01:23,280
know taking it all in enjoying my like

1621
01:01:27,650 --> 01:01:25,380
evening role play as a swamp witch

1622
01:01:29,690 --> 01:01:27,660
thinking what the [\h__\h] am I gonna say to

1623
01:01:31,730 --> 01:01:29,700
this person I don't know like I just got

1624
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:31,740
done talking about sex rituals like I

1625
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:32,880
don't have anything to say about whether

1626
01:01:37,609 --> 01:01:35,160
people has an Ascension like I have no

1627
01:01:40,190 --> 01:01:37,619
idea I think we've talked about this on

1628
01:01:42,230 --> 01:01:40,200
a space quite a while ago but like as an

1629
01:01:44,870 --> 01:01:42,240
observer of a phenomenon like that how

1630
01:01:46,750 --> 01:01:44,880
are we distinguishing intelligence from

1631
01:01:49,010 --> 01:01:46,760
randomness

1632
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:49,020
how much are we projecting our own

1633
01:01:52,010 --> 01:01:50,400
heuristics of what indicates

1634
01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:52,020
Consciousness or intelligence and also

1635
01:01:57,530 --> 01:01:55,200
okay yeah like like I mean like Conway's

1636
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:57,540
Game of Life like demonstrates that

1637
01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:00,000
self-organizing behavior which looks to

1638
01:02:04,670 --> 01:02:02,160
us like intelligent behavior is

1639
01:02:06,650 --> 01:02:04,680
algorithmic like it's algorithmic like

1640
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:06,660
very tiny scales like if you have like

1641
01:02:11,390 --> 01:02:09,599
just a 9x9 grid and you play it by like

1642
01:02:13,130 --> 01:02:11,400
Conway's algorithms it will

1643
01:02:15,770 --> 01:02:13,140
self-organize and behave in ways that

1644
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:15,780
are very much uh reminiscent of how

1645
01:02:23,410 --> 01:02:18,720
living organisms behave yeah but anyway

1646
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:23,420
Campbell so is the plasma conscious

1647
01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:26,640
uh that has not been verified based on

1648
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:28,859
anything I am aware of

1649
01:02:33,170 --> 01:02:30,960
um it's a pretty interesting thing

1650
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:33,180
though okay so it's like how does it

1651
01:02:36,829 --> 01:02:35,280
emerge that that would even be a

1652
01:02:39,170 --> 01:02:36,839
question that's asked of you right like

1653
01:02:42,170 --> 01:02:39,180
why is somebody asking you if you think

1654
01:02:46,130 --> 01:02:42,180
plasma is conscious now uh and let me

1655
01:02:48,109 --> 01:02:46,140
point out like before May 2021 I had

1656
01:02:49,250 --> 01:02:48,119
never even thought about plasma if

1657
01:02:50,750 --> 01:02:49,260
somebody asked me what plasma was I

1658
01:02:52,609 --> 01:02:50,760
would have said some an element of blood

1659
01:02:55,490 --> 01:02:52,619
or something yeah so it wasn't on my

1660
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:55,500
state of matter yes exactly it's like uh

1661
01:03:00,730 --> 01:02:58,079
yeah um Pure Energy well not Pure Energy

1662
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:00,740
but energy being Guided by

1663
01:03:03,349 --> 01:03:02,400
magnetohydrodynamics exactly we were

1664
01:03:05,710 --> 01:03:03,359
describing just sort of like

1665
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:05,720
thermodynamics the basic physics and it

1666
01:03:13,030 --> 01:03:08,880
self-organizes in a variety of ways that

1667
01:03:15,710 --> 01:03:13,040
appear to us to exhibit some kind of

1668
01:03:17,329 --> 01:03:15,720
conscious intent but and it's

1669
01:03:20,390 --> 01:03:17,339
interesting to think that like looking

1670
01:03:23,690 --> 01:03:20,400
up at the stars fifteen thousand years

1671
01:03:26,809 --> 01:03:23,700
ago or whatever us attributing conscious

1672
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:26,819
intent to the predictable rhythmic

1673
01:03:31,609 --> 01:03:28,799
nature of those

1674
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:31,619
um you know natural phenomena we created

1675
01:03:35,089 --> 01:03:33,119
all the ideas and the gods literally

1676
01:03:37,970 --> 01:03:35,099
were those objects that were moving in a

1677
01:03:40,670 --> 01:03:37,980
predictable way the planets like uh

1678
01:03:42,770 --> 01:03:40,680
Jupiter Deus Potter the father God right

1679
01:03:44,870 --> 01:03:42,780
like that's what it was so

1680
01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:44,880
um we have this natural inclination to

1681
01:03:50,210 --> 01:03:47,760
project internal uh intent intelligence

1682
01:03:53,089 --> 01:03:50,220
onto natural phenomena it's what keeps

1683
01:03:56,210 --> 01:03:53,099
us alive uh if you project the natural

1684
01:03:58,130 --> 01:03:56,220
like a tiger being in the bush when it

1685
01:03:59,930 --> 01:03:58,140
shakes like it's better to do that than

1686
01:04:01,670 --> 01:03:59,940
to nod and then get eaten right so so

1687
01:04:02,690 --> 01:04:01,680
it's selected for to project that type

1688
01:04:05,630 --> 01:04:02,700
of thing

1689
01:04:07,970 --> 01:04:05,640
plasma gets really interesting when it

1690
01:04:10,910 --> 01:04:07,980
starts interacting with itself in an

1691
01:04:13,609 --> 01:04:10,920
energy a high energy environment

1692
01:04:16,309 --> 01:04:13,619
um you can do this in Labs you can form

1693
01:04:19,010 --> 01:04:16,319
uh like it naturally forms balls it's

1694
01:04:21,710 --> 01:04:19,020
like energy conservation it's like

1695
01:04:23,210 --> 01:04:21,720
um it's like drops of water right so

1696
01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:23,220
you're like optimizes towards like the

1697
01:04:29,030 --> 01:04:24,960
most efficient organization or something

1698
01:04:30,710 --> 01:04:29,040
yes and um yeah and you can create tiny

1699
01:04:31,970 --> 01:04:30,720
of what's described as Tiny ball

1700
01:04:34,270 --> 01:04:31,980
Lightnings in the lab they're called

1701
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:34,280
skirmians and they basically are

1702
01:04:39,170 --> 01:04:36,720
three-dimensional whirlpools they are

1703
01:04:41,510 --> 01:04:39,180
self-contained electromagnetic energy

1704
01:04:43,870 --> 01:04:41,520
Loops that are connected all together

1705
01:04:47,030 --> 01:04:43,880
and then they move in space

1706
01:04:49,970 --> 01:04:47,040
self-contained and like in

1707
01:04:51,770 --> 01:04:49,980
um uh the ocean a Whirlpool some can

1708
01:04:54,650 --> 01:04:51,780
grow huge and then they can travel

1709
01:04:58,010 --> 01:04:54,660
across the entire uh like massive

1710
01:05:01,130 --> 01:04:58,020
distances and transport entire um animal

1711
01:05:02,930 --> 01:05:01,140
uh communities massive distances and

1712
01:05:05,450 --> 01:05:02,940
what happened to Atlantis

1713
01:05:08,690 --> 01:05:05,460
right exactly and that's where we're

1714
01:05:11,450 --> 01:05:08,700
going with this I knew it and that's the

1715
01:05:14,210 --> 01:05:11,460
Final Chapter yeah great

1716
01:05:15,609 --> 01:05:14,220
um but uh yeah so with plasma it

1717
01:05:17,450 --> 01:05:15,619
operates according to

1718
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:17,460
magnetohydrodynamics it's like fluid

1719
01:05:22,910 --> 01:05:19,920
dynamics and it's based on magnetism and

1720
01:05:26,450 --> 01:05:22,920
electricity and Bernoulli's principle

1721
01:05:27,890 --> 01:05:26,460
yeah and so static electricity and so

1722
01:05:30,349 --> 01:05:27,900
basically

1723
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:30,359
something this is actually touching on a

1724
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:32,160
very important part of this which is

1725
01:05:39,010 --> 01:05:36,000
exactly the um the projection of the

1726
01:05:42,530 --> 01:05:39,020
conscious intent and the way that people

1727
01:05:44,990 --> 01:05:42,540
can be most effectively reasoned with

1728
01:05:46,730 --> 01:05:45,000
from an evidence-based perspective

1729
01:05:49,329 --> 01:05:46,740
if you are arguing with somebody who

1730
01:05:53,210 --> 01:05:49,339
disagrees with you from a um

1731
01:05:55,030 --> 01:05:53,220
from an intrinsic values based

1732
01:05:56,650 --> 01:05:55,040
personality based perspective

1733
01:05:59,150 --> 01:05:56,660
information

1734
01:06:01,370 --> 01:05:59,160
has nothing to do with convincing them

1735
01:06:03,289 --> 01:06:01,380
that's just you know it does if you

1736
01:06:05,510 --> 01:06:03,299
directly insult their intelligence I

1737
01:06:06,890 --> 01:06:05,520
found that super effective that will

1738
01:06:09,049 --> 01:06:06,900
open them up

1739
01:06:12,530 --> 01:06:09,059
yeah they will roll back they will say

1740
01:06:15,049 --> 01:06:12,540
that you're a genius yeah no

1741
01:06:16,190 --> 01:06:15,059
um but yeah so um when you study like

1742
01:06:17,690 --> 01:06:16,200
okay how do you explain how do you

1743
01:06:19,549 --> 01:06:17,700
convince somebody something you have to

1744
01:06:23,150 --> 01:06:19,559
get into you you ignore the information

1745
01:06:25,849 --> 01:06:23,160
and you target philosophy world view

1746
01:06:27,890 --> 01:06:25,859
so it's like with somebody who's saying

1747
01:06:30,650 --> 01:06:27,900
like well I saw this luminous object

1748
01:06:32,690 --> 01:06:30,660
it's an alien so you have to think like

1749
01:06:34,490 --> 01:06:32,700
it's not about like oh let's reason with

1750
01:06:36,410 --> 01:06:34,500
you that it's improbable that it's an

1751
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:36,420
alien that's not helpful uh from a

1752
01:06:39,349 --> 01:06:37,440
scientific perspective when you're

1753
01:06:42,049 --> 01:06:39,359
trying to convince a person

1754
01:06:44,329 --> 01:06:42,059
you have to get into the philosophy and

1755
01:06:47,029 --> 01:06:44,339
the philosophy of projecting conscious

1756
01:06:50,450 --> 01:06:47,039
like the alien nature onto these objects

1757
01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:50,460
is the in the perception of intelligent

1758
01:06:54,170 --> 01:06:51,599
control

1759
01:06:55,849 --> 01:06:54,180
if you can't deal with that then it's

1760
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:55,859
all a non-starter that's what everybody

1761
01:07:00,170 --> 01:06:58,079
instantly will come back to me with as

1762
01:07:02,210 --> 01:07:00,180
the first thing every time well but it

1763
01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:02,220
was clearly and Alive it was clearly

1764
01:07:07,910 --> 01:07:03,839
intelligent

1765
01:07:10,010 --> 01:07:07,920
and the reason that these plasmoids look

1766
01:07:12,470 --> 01:07:10,020
intelligent is because they operate

1767
01:07:16,309 --> 01:07:12,480
according to the principles of static

1768
01:07:18,589 --> 01:07:16,319
electricity and magnetohydrodynamics and

1769
01:07:21,109 --> 01:07:18,599
they're a significant number of lab

1770
01:07:23,210 --> 01:07:21,119
experiments that we can look at the

1771
01:07:25,670 --> 01:07:23,220
videos of that show

1772
01:07:29,569 --> 01:07:25,680
things as simple as flakes of carbon

1773
01:07:31,730 --> 01:07:29,579
being charged and moving in an elect an

1774
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:31,740
energized environment in a like a

1775
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:34,559
massive microwave and they behave

1776
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:37,920
in the exact same ways as the in the

1777
01:07:43,010 --> 01:07:40,079
sounds absurd but the Nimitz Tic Tac is

1778
01:07:45,109 --> 01:07:43,020
described as behaving there are hundreds

1779
01:07:47,329 --> 01:07:45,119
of these flakes of the charged carbon

1780
01:07:49,069 --> 01:07:47,339
some of them go all the way up drop down

1781
01:07:50,450 --> 01:07:49,079
to sea level like we're doing this some

1782
01:07:52,430 --> 01:07:50,460
of them are doing these weird little

1783
01:07:54,349 --> 01:07:52,440
jerky motions some of them are just

1784
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:54,359
mowing right in some of them are doing

1785
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:56,640
this weird like leaf-like falling effect

1786
01:08:02,089 --> 01:07:59,520
that's often described there uh and then

1787
01:08:05,470 --> 01:08:02,099
it based on the energy in the microwave

1788
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:05,480
they start spinning around in the center

1789
01:08:10,190 --> 01:08:08,220
dependent on the energy flow and all of

1790
01:08:12,109 --> 01:08:10,200
that and so

1791
01:08:15,770 --> 01:08:12,119
um you can use

1792
01:08:18,829 --> 01:08:15,780
video experiments to show

1793
01:08:20,150 --> 01:08:18,839
all of the behaviors that anybody who

1794
01:08:21,709 --> 01:08:20,160
I've ever talked to on this subject

1795
01:08:24,410 --> 01:08:21,719
coming back to me and saying like this

1796
01:08:26,209 --> 01:08:24,420
is the reason why we have to say they're

1797
01:08:30,289 --> 01:08:26,219
intelligent is because of this set of

1798
01:08:32,390 --> 01:08:30,299
behaviors and then I can show like a

1799
01:08:34,970 --> 01:08:32,400
dozen videos showing the exact Behavior

1800
01:08:37,610 --> 01:08:34,980
sets except purely operating within the

1801
01:08:39,769 --> 01:08:37,620
confines of a microwave with you know

1802
01:08:42,110 --> 01:08:39,779
charged particles and stuff and

1803
01:08:43,669 --> 01:08:42,120
and then it depends on you know how much

1804
01:08:45,590 --> 01:08:43,679
the person's open to the actual

1805
01:08:47,809 --> 01:08:45,600
information or not

1806
01:08:50,749 --> 01:08:47,819
I wonder when you uh approach people

1807
01:08:53,689 --> 01:08:50,759
with this concept it if they're holding

1808
01:08:56,510 --> 01:08:53,699
it up to kind of compare to the UFO

1809
01:08:59,209 --> 01:08:56,520
mythosa narrative as a whole instead of

1810
01:09:01,189 --> 01:08:59,219
individual cases because the UFO Mythos

1811
01:09:03,530 --> 01:09:01,199
as a whole I think a lot of people tie

1812
01:09:05,090 --> 01:09:03,540
their personalities into you know what I

1813
01:09:06,650 --> 01:09:05,100
mean it's part of them it's part of who

1814
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,660
they are they're part of this UFO

1815
01:09:10,490 --> 01:09:08,400
Community that's part of this greater

1816
01:09:12,530 --> 01:09:10,500
UFO narrative and stuff like that so

1817
01:09:14,990 --> 01:09:12,540
when you know someone like Mick West

1818
01:09:17,749 --> 01:09:15,000
debunked something some video as a

1819
01:09:22,610 --> 01:09:17,759
seagull or a fly or a drone they're like

1820
01:09:24,530 --> 01:09:22,620
he's attacking UFOs he's saying all UFOs

1821
01:09:27,289 --> 01:09:24,540
or drones or seagulls or something I

1822
01:09:28,309 --> 01:09:27,299
mean you see even Dr Gary Nolan book in

1823
01:09:30,709 --> 01:09:28,319
front of Midwest saying things are

1824
01:09:32,150 --> 01:09:30,719
seagulls but it's interesting I think I

1825
01:09:33,410 --> 01:09:32,160
think if people

1826
01:09:36,829 --> 01:09:33,420
um add a different perspective on the

1827
01:09:40,370 --> 01:09:36,839
UFO Topic in general and saw it as us a

1828
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:40,380
wide collection of individual cases of

1829
01:09:44,809 --> 01:09:42,600
unknown things I think I think people

1830
01:09:47,090 --> 01:09:44,819
would be a lot more accepting of

1831
01:09:49,010 --> 01:09:47,100
options like this or like ideas like

1832
01:09:51,050 --> 01:09:49,020
like you're presenting you know what I

1833
01:09:53,630 --> 01:09:51,060
mean because like what you're describing

1834
01:09:55,790 --> 01:09:53,640
like I said earlier describes the Lake

1835
01:09:57,770 --> 01:09:55,800
Michigan case really well it did it

1836
01:10:00,709 --> 01:09:57,780
describes the uh 1952 Washington

1837
01:10:03,530 --> 01:10:00,719
Invasion won really well too uh these

1838
01:10:04,970 --> 01:10:03,540
balls of like luminous objects uh

1839
01:10:08,689 --> 01:10:04,980
different colors moving in strange

1840
01:10:10,189 --> 01:10:08,699
patterns uh being detected on radar I

1841
01:10:12,350 --> 01:10:10,199
think is another characteristic that

1842
01:10:14,330 --> 01:10:12,360
that can happen with these things yeah I

1843
01:10:17,150 --> 01:10:14,340
think if I think if you present it on a

1844
01:10:19,010 --> 01:10:17,160
case-by-case basis which is I think how

1845
01:10:22,970 --> 01:10:19,020
UFOs should be viewed I mean there's no

1846
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:22,980
yes like uh commonality between a lot of

1847
01:10:27,470 --> 01:10:25,199
these cases but we all classify them as

1848
01:10:29,870 --> 01:10:27,480
UFOs like a Tic Tac and what was

1849
01:10:31,610 --> 01:10:29,880
described at the Lake Michigan case you

1850
01:10:34,550 --> 01:10:31,620
wouldn't you wouldn't categorize as the

1851
01:10:36,830 --> 01:10:34,560
same thing I would think unless we have

1852
01:10:38,990 --> 01:10:36,840
this umbrella term kind of as UFOs I

1853
01:10:40,910 --> 01:10:39,000
just want I wonder about that because I

1854
01:10:43,310 --> 01:10:40,920
mean you've gotten pushback from even

1855
01:10:46,130 --> 01:10:43,320
Skeptics with this stuff right I mean

1856
01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:46,140
it's really strange I don't know if

1857
01:10:49,970 --> 01:10:48,239
that's if it's all just kind of personal

1858
01:10:51,050 --> 01:10:49,980
bias and personality being tied up into

1859
01:10:53,930 --> 01:10:51,060
it or not

1860
01:10:56,270 --> 01:10:53,940
no yeah and uh I think that uh you're

1861
01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:56,280
you're raising a good point I I think

1862
01:11:00,649 --> 01:10:57,360
that

1863
01:11:02,890 --> 01:11:00,659
um there is a big issue with

1864
01:11:05,630 --> 01:11:02,900
communication around

1865
01:11:08,689 --> 01:11:05,640
what we're even talking about when we're

1866
01:11:10,370 --> 01:11:08,699
saying UFO sure and yeah I think that

1867
01:11:12,890 --> 01:11:10,380
there's a lot of sort of there's a lot

1868
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,900
of dancing on both sides

1869
01:11:17,090 --> 01:11:15,120
um about like the exact definitional

1870
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:17,100
criteria there

1871
01:11:21,890 --> 01:11:19,199
um I would tend I mean

1872
01:11:23,870 --> 01:11:21,900
culturally I side with Skeptics 100

1873
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:23,880
historically

1874
01:11:28,669 --> 01:11:26,880
um I don't like debunking I respect it

1875
01:11:30,590 --> 01:11:28,679
and I approve of it but I don't I've

1876
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:30,600
never personally been involved with that

1877
01:11:34,910 --> 01:11:33,360
um I find it kind of like uh I I I've

1878
01:11:36,890 --> 01:11:34,920
kind of somebody who acts based on being

1879
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:36,900
inspired by like finding new things

1880
01:11:40,250 --> 01:11:39,120
actively not like kind of like canceling

1881
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:40,260
other stuff even though I think it's

1882
01:11:43,010 --> 01:11:42,239
incredibly important sure

1883
01:11:46,430 --> 01:11:43,020
um

1884
01:11:48,070 --> 01:11:46,440
but yes the underlying sort of like I've

1885
01:11:50,990 --> 01:11:48,080
wondered about this this cultural

1886
01:11:53,030 --> 01:11:51,000
phenomenon where

1887
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:53,040
um actually let me use a brief example I

1888
01:11:58,130 --> 01:11:55,679
was arguing with somebody about this

1889
01:12:00,590 --> 01:11:58,140
exact thing ball lightning and whether

1890
01:12:02,270 --> 01:12:00,600
like some of these most prominent cases

1891
01:12:03,350 --> 01:12:02,280
might end up being resolved as ball

1892
01:12:06,770 --> 01:12:03,360
lightning

1893
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:06,780
um and this skeptic individual

1894
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:10,560
um was sort of saying like uh you know

1895
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:12,000
expressing uh doubts or whatever that's

1896
01:12:14,870 --> 01:12:13,199
reasonable because it's like it's

1897
01:12:16,370 --> 01:12:14,880
probably just a variety of like mundane

1898
01:12:18,830 --> 01:12:16,380
phenomena this is sort of like something

1899
01:12:20,090 --> 01:12:18,840
that like if ball lightning has proven

1900
01:12:21,470 --> 01:12:20,100
to show these features that we're

1901
01:12:23,390 --> 01:12:21,480
talking about it would be new to science

1902
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:23,400
if we can prove that it can do these

1903
01:12:27,410 --> 01:12:24,960
things as opposed to just a variety of

1904
01:12:29,330 --> 01:12:27,420
published uh papers of field study

1905
01:12:31,550 --> 01:12:29,340
observations of it plus the proof of all

1906
01:12:34,130 --> 01:12:31,560
lightning in itself existing

1907
01:12:36,830 --> 01:12:34,140
um so I was saying to that person I was

1908
01:12:39,410 --> 01:12:36,840
like well if we look back on the sort of

1909
01:12:40,910 --> 01:12:39,420
like culture war between the uh you know

1910
01:12:43,790 --> 01:12:40,920
truth Secrets slash Believers and

1911
01:12:44,750 --> 01:12:43,800
Skeptics and we sort of are like

1912
01:12:48,050 --> 01:12:44,760
um

1913
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:48,060
if the objects with the features as

1914
01:12:53,570 --> 01:12:49,920
described historically

1915
01:12:54,649 --> 01:12:53,580
do exist and there turn out to be ball

1916
01:12:58,130 --> 01:12:54,659
lightning

1917
01:12:59,149 --> 01:12:58,140
like who's more wrong historically the

1918
01:13:01,010 --> 01:12:59,159
Skeptics

1919
01:13:03,770 --> 01:13:01,020
or the Believers

1920
01:13:05,810 --> 01:13:03,780
and the skeptic person said to me

1921
01:13:08,149 --> 01:13:05,820
they're both wrong equally

1922
01:13:09,530 --> 01:13:08,159
hmm I think that's interesting because I

1923
01:13:12,350 --> 01:13:09,540
disagree with that

1924
01:13:14,090 --> 01:13:12,360
because I I think it's obvious that the

1925
01:13:16,189 --> 01:13:14,100
in quotes truth Seekers were more

1926
01:13:18,410 --> 01:13:16,199
correct because they at least were

1927
01:13:20,630 --> 01:13:18,420
saying descriptively the objects with

1928
01:13:23,630 --> 01:13:20,640
these features did exist sure

1929
01:13:26,270 --> 01:13:23,640
yeah that said they are also profoundly

1930
01:13:27,649 --> 01:13:26,280
fundamentally wrong and maybe maybe in a

1931
01:13:29,810 --> 01:13:27,659
deeper sense because they're saying that

1932
01:13:31,310 --> 01:13:29,820
it's like a non-human intelligence as

1933
01:13:32,630 --> 01:13:31,320
opposed to the Skeptics always saying if

1934
01:13:34,850 --> 01:13:32,640
this is something it's likely something

1935
01:13:36,350 --> 01:13:34,860
natural even though it would be the

1936
01:13:37,669 --> 01:13:36,360
discount to the likelihood of it being

1937
01:13:39,470 --> 01:13:37,679
something new with those features

1938
01:13:41,090 --> 01:13:39,480
because I mean I never even thought for

1939
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:41,100
a moment myself historically that that

1940
01:13:44,209 --> 01:13:42,719
would be something that would be in

1941
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:44,219
reality something with those features

1942
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:46,800
right but uh that yeah so yeah that's

1943
01:13:50,450 --> 01:13:48,960
been a sort of clash that I've seen

1944
01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:50,460
absolutely

1945
01:13:54,530 --> 01:13:52,199
I wanted to go back to something Nick

1946
01:13:56,689 --> 01:13:54,540
said about the

1947
01:14:00,350 --> 01:13:56,699
propensity in this community for people

1948
01:14:02,750 --> 01:14:00,360
to personalize like skeptical approaches

1949
01:14:04,910 --> 01:14:02,760
and I bring this up um because as I've

1950
01:14:08,030 --> 01:14:04,920
become much more personally interested

1951
01:14:10,850 --> 01:14:08,040
and invested in I would say the

1952
01:14:12,410 --> 01:14:10,860
experiencer phenomenology like reports

1953
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:12,420
that people make about their personal

1954
01:14:18,350 --> 01:14:15,600
experiences yeah I've also become very

1955
01:14:21,830 --> 01:14:18,360
preoccupied with this

1956
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:21,840
process of unyoking experience or

1957
01:14:27,470 --> 01:14:24,480
phenomena from UFOs as observed

1958
01:14:30,169 --> 01:14:27,480
phenomena and I bring this up

1959
01:14:31,490 --> 01:14:30,179
because um I have a handful of people I

1960
01:14:32,810 --> 01:14:31,500
talk to

1961
01:14:34,189 --> 01:14:32,820
um who share their experiences with me

1962
01:14:37,669 --> 01:14:34,199
who talk to me about this part of their

1963
01:14:40,310 --> 01:14:37,679
lives and one of the things I always am

1964
01:14:41,930 --> 01:14:40,320
so curious about is like how do they how

1965
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:41,940
did they put two and two together like

1966
01:14:47,330 --> 01:14:44,159
what made them connect what they have

1967
01:14:49,790 --> 01:14:47,340
experienced with ufology because like

1968
01:14:52,630 --> 01:14:49,800
and I say that because

1969
01:14:55,250 --> 01:14:52,640
um not that I'm like the Arbiter of

1970
01:14:57,530 --> 01:14:55,260
intellectual strength or prowess or

1971
01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,540
whatever but like I'm pretty well

1972
01:15:01,669 --> 01:14:59,520
educated and well read in like the

1973
01:15:03,470 --> 01:15:01,679
history of religion and spirituality and

1974
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:03,480
Theology and mysticism and all this

1975
01:15:07,970 --> 01:15:06,239
stuff and like I never made that

1976
01:15:10,189 --> 01:15:07,980
connection like I never made the

1977
01:15:11,570 --> 01:15:10,199
connection of people's

1978
01:15:14,270 --> 01:15:11,580
um like mystical or Transcendent

1979
01:15:17,390 --> 01:15:14,280
experiences with UFOs but now I mean

1980
01:15:19,250 --> 01:15:17,400
having had insight into the community

1981
01:15:20,510 --> 01:15:19,260
um it almost feels like we're talking I

1982
01:15:23,209 --> 01:15:20,520
mean obviously we're always talking

1983
01:15:27,290 --> 01:15:23,219
about kind of this like constellation of

1984
01:15:31,430 --> 01:15:27,300
subjects when we talk about UFOs but um

1985
01:15:33,169 --> 01:15:31,440
I'm I I can't help but also think that a

1986
01:15:34,669 --> 01:15:33,179
lot of people who are experiencers who

1987
01:15:36,229 --> 01:15:34,679
are sort of like struggling to make

1988
01:15:37,729 --> 01:15:36,239
sense of what they've experienced or

1989
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:37,739
don't have like a good narrative for

1990
01:15:42,830 --> 01:15:39,420
like understanding it or framing it or

1991
01:15:46,910 --> 01:15:42,840
even processing it then see like

1992
01:15:49,370 --> 01:15:46,920
because they have included UFOs is like

1993
01:15:51,830 --> 01:15:49,380
a subject into their experience that's

1994
01:15:54,470 --> 01:15:51,840
deeply personal that any sort of

1995
01:15:58,790 --> 01:15:54,480
skepticism becomes

1996
01:16:00,770 --> 01:15:58,800
um a uh negotiation about the truth of

1997
01:16:02,870 --> 01:16:00,780
their experience right even though the

1998
01:16:04,209 --> 01:16:02,880
truth of their experience may exist in a

1999
01:16:08,209 --> 01:16:04,219
kind of

2000
01:16:10,130 --> 01:16:08,219
like rational third place beyond binary

2001
01:16:11,570 --> 01:16:10,140
modalities of true and false right like

2002
01:16:13,970 --> 01:16:11,580
it may sort of exist in this sort of

2003
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:13,980
like psychosocial mythological whatever

2004
01:16:16,550 --> 01:16:15,600
space

2005
01:16:18,890 --> 01:16:16,560
um

2006
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:18,900
and I'm so

2007
01:16:22,729 --> 01:16:21,360
I I guess this is why Kimber way Came

2008
01:16:24,229 --> 01:16:22,739
Out Swinging with like so what do you

2009
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:24,239
think of like the psychosocial stuff

2010
01:16:30,189 --> 01:16:26,400
what do you think of the myth because it

2011
01:16:35,470 --> 01:16:34,189
like I I just I'm so fascinated by how

2012
01:16:39,110 --> 01:16:35,480
people

2013
01:16:41,450 --> 01:16:39,120
know or connect these experiences with

2014
01:16:44,530 --> 01:16:41,460
UFOs as a subject instead of just

2015
01:16:47,390 --> 01:16:44,540
thinking of it as like Transcendence or

2016
01:16:49,550 --> 01:16:47,400
psychosis or whatever else you know well

2017
01:16:50,510 --> 01:16:49,560
that's an interesting point and I think

2018
01:16:56,630 --> 01:16:50,520
that

2019
01:16:58,310 --> 01:16:56,640
people in the UFO Community are the

2020
01:17:01,130 --> 01:16:58,320
people who have these experiences and

2021
01:17:03,410 --> 01:17:01,140
process them in through that lens

2022
01:17:05,870 --> 01:17:03,420
um when I uh you know I listen regularly

2023
01:17:09,350 --> 01:17:05,880
to sort of like atheist uh call-in shows

2024
01:17:10,669 --> 01:17:09,360
where an atheist talks with a Believer

2025
01:17:12,410 --> 01:17:10,679
um I've been doing that for like over 10

2026
01:17:14,870 --> 01:17:12,420
years I just uh

2027
01:17:17,090 --> 01:17:14,880
I find that very interesting and and

2028
01:17:19,310 --> 01:17:17,100
people are calling in with very similar

2029
01:17:22,010 --> 01:17:19,320
experiences uh to what I've seen in the

2030
01:17:23,630 --> 01:17:22,020
UFO Community uh regularly about these

2031
01:17:25,790 --> 01:17:23,640
sort of like dissociative experiences

2032
01:17:27,950 --> 01:17:25,800
these moments of crisis when a figure

2033
01:17:29,990 --> 01:17:27,960
comes to them

2034
01:17:32,689 --> 01:17:30,000
um you know and we've all sort of uh

2035
01:17:34,729 --> 01:17:32,699
seen these things and then they process

2036
01:17:38,390 --> 01:17:34,739
those things through their um their

2037
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:38,400
religious uh faith and so it's like it's

2038
01:17:45,290 --> 01:17:42,000
like the alien or the um the UFO is

2039
01:17:46,189 --> 01:17:45,300
almost like uh it really is the modern

2040
01:17:47,930 --> 01:17:46,199
um

2041
01:17:49,790 --> 01:17:47,940
it's like the modern religion isn't it

2042
01:17:52,130 --> 01:17:49,800
and that's the Rorschach test

2043
01:17:55,070 --> 01:17:52,140
yes yeah it's a standard to see what

2044
01:17:56,990 --> 01:17:55,080
your world view is really you know you

2045
01:17:59,870 --> 01:17:57,000
reminds me oh Louis you're out of your

2046
01:18:01,790 --> 01:17:59,880
k-hole you're back to reality man

2047
01:18:03,770 --> 01:18:01,800
um you know it reminds me of like the

2048
01:18:06,649 --> 01:18:03,780
miracle of Fatima right like when you

2049
01:18:08,990 --> 01:18:06,659
read like accounts of the appearance at

2050
01:18:11,209 --> 01:18:09,000
Fatima that appeared before what 50 000

2051
01:18:13,930 --> 01:18:11,219
people or something yeah this is this is

2052
01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:13,940
not literally the like

2053
01:18:19,550 --> 01:18:16,980
cornflower blue and white veiled Mary

2054
01:18:21,350 --> 01:18:19,560
this is like a [\h__\h] ball of light in

2055
01:18:23,030 --> 01:18:21,360
the sky that bounced around that a lot

2056
01:18:26,510 --> 01:18:23,040
of people saw well they couldn't do it

2057
01:18:28,070 --> 01:18:26,520
with the sun yeah Campbell uh you this

2058
01:18:29,870 --> 01:18:28,080
is actually a uh I think you're a good

2059
01:18:31,669 --> 01:18:29,880
person to ask this question you said you

2060
01:18:33,950 --> 01:18:31,679
had no like interest you had no dog in

2061
01:18:36,110 --> 01:18:33,960
the race for UFOs growing up until about

2062
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:36,120
2017 or 2018.

2063
01:18:42,290 --> 01:18:38,520
but before that time if someone asked

2064
01:18:44,570 --> 01:18:42,300
you what a UFO is or to draw a UFO what

2065
01:18:48,709 --> 01:18:44,580
would you have said I would have drawn

2066
01:18:51,470 --> 01:18:48,719
uh the spaceship on The Simpsons right a

2067
01:18:53,930 --> 01:18:51,480
a flying saucer yeah right so I mean

2068
01:18:55,729 --> 01:18:53,940
like without being interested or being a

2069
01:18:58,490 --> 01:18:55,739
part of the community like kind of

2070
01:18:59,990 --> 01:18:58,500
culturally you knew that like weird

2071
01:19:03,649 --> 01:19:00,000
things in the sky especially at night

2072
01:19:05,689 --> 01:19:03,659
glowing Are UFOs and culturally UFOs are

2073
01:19:08,510 --> 01:19:05,699
aliens right so it's all yeah it's

2074
01:19:10,430 --> 01:19:08,520
already there in us right yeah so I mean

2075
01:19:12,110 --> 01:19:10,440
when people do have these kind of

2076
01:19:14,390 --> 01:19:12,120
experiences they're they're drawing on

2077
01:19:16,550 --> 01:19:14,400
what they know and uh

2078
01:19:18,169 --> 01:19:16,560
anything coming down from the sky at

2079
01:19:19,010 --> 01:19:18,179
night any luminous objects in this guy

2080
01:19:22,370 --> 01:19:19,020
or

2081
01:19:24,830 --> 01:19:22,380
going to be like oh that was a UFO I saw

2082
01:19:26,330 --> 01:19:24,840
this which like yeah I mean a lot of

2083
01:19:29,450 --> 01:19:26,340
these experiences like I believe that

2084
01:19:30,530 --> 01:19:29,460
you did see that I think you saw that

2085
01:19:31,850 --> 01:19:30,540
but

2086
01:19:33,709 --> 01:19:31,860
that's just telling me your

2087
01:19:36,590 --> 01:19:33,719
interpretation of it Whatever Happened

2088
01:19:39,110 --> 01:19:36,600
is is it could be a different story I'll

2089
01:19:40,669 --> 01:19:39,120
say it could be but that's that's the

2090
01:19:43,970 --> 01:19:40,679
lens and that's kind of the lens you

2091
01:19:46,669 --> 01:19:43,980
were given by at least our culture or

2092
01:19:48,050 --> 01:19:46,679
Irish Society now well you know yes

2093
01:19:52,070 --> 01:19:48,060
absolutely I think you're right and

2094
01:19:55,669 --> 01:19:52,080
before May and June 2021 if somebody

2095
01:19:58,070 --> 01:19:55,679
told me they had seen a UFO though I

2096
01:20:00,410 --> 01:19:58,080
probably would have said I don't I don't

2097
01:20:02,149 --> 01:20:00,420
believe you right like sure unless the

2098
01:20:03,410 --> 01:20:02,159
you know I you know whatever or I think

2099
01:20:05,510 --> 01:20:03,420
they saw a plane or something but if

2100
01:20:07,490 --> 01:20:05,520
they describe like no it's multi-colored

2101
01:20:09,890 --> 01:20:07,500
and there were lights all spinning and

2102
01:20:11,870 --> 01:20:09,900
then it like uh came down close to the

2103
01:20:14,810 --> 01:20:11,880
ground and shot a light down and then it

2104
01:20:17,090 --> 01:20:14,820
blasted up instantaneously into space I

2105
01:20:19,370 --> 01:20:17,100
would be like okay well it's far more

2106
01:20:21,890 --> 01:20:19,380
likely that you hallucinated that and it

2107
01:20:24,050 --> 01:20:21,900
still is even if objects that are

2108
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:24,060
capable of doing those things exist each

2109
01:20:27,110 --> 01:20:25,679
individ that's what makes it so

2110
01:20:28,430 --> 01:20:27,120
interesting and that is what we've

2111
01:20:29,330 --> 01:20:28,440
talked about before a little bit is

2112
01:20:35,930 --> 01:20:29,340
these

2113
01:20:38,689 --> 01:20:35,940
random very rare and if you don't have

2114
01:20:39,950 --> 01:20:38,699
sufficient equipment to capture it in a

2115
01:20:41,810 --> 01:20:39,960
way that you can show others in a

2116
01:20:43,610 --> 01:20:41,820
convincing way

2117
01:20:45,110 --> 01:20:43,620
any time you observe something like that

2118
01:20:47,390 --> 01:20:45,120
it is far more likely that you did not

2119
01:20:48,830 --> 01:20:47,400
observe it then you did observe it and

2120
01:20:50,930 --> 01:20:48,840
therefore we end up in these

2121
01:20:53,270 --> 01:20:50,940
circumstances where like with ball

2122
01:20:56,990 --> 01:20:53,280
lightning until it's proven with a very

2123
01:20:58,729 --> 01:20:57,000
high quality sensor system in 2014

2124
01:21:00,470 --> 01:20:58,739
you know we have maybe thousands or tens

2125
01:21:01,790 --> 01:21:00,480
of thousands of people who observe these

2126
01:21:02,390 --> 01:21:01,800
things and then

2127
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:02,400
um

2128
01:21:07,490 --> 01:21:05,280
based on trying to like get an idea of

2129
01:21:09,950 --> 01:21:07,500
what they saw

2130
01:21:13,189 --> 01:21:09,960
if you go to the skeptic Community you

2131
01:21:15,649 --> 01:21:13,199
might be shut down yeah and that's fair

2132
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:15,659
based on the scientific method the

2133
01:21:19,790 --> 01:21:18,239
absolute highest standards possible if

2134
01:21:21,470 --> 01:21:19,800
you don't have the spectrographic

2135
01:21:23,450 --> 01:21:21,480
analysis published in peer review all

2136
01:21:24,590 --> 01:21:23,460
that stuff like you can't say I saw a

2137
01:21:26,510 --> 01:21:24,600
ball while I did this and that and this

2138
01:21:27,770 --> 01:21:26,520
and have people believe you and so then

2139
01:21:30,470 --> 01:21:27,780
they turn

2140
01:21:32,030 --> 01:21:30,480
and they go into well since I did see

2141
01:21:34,910 --> 01:21:32,040
this who's going to validate my

2142
01:21:37,490 --> 01:21:34,920
experience and the only narrative that

2143
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:37,500
is possible right now in a major sense

2144
01:21:41,090 --> 01:21:39,120
is the

2145
01:21:42,229 --> 01:21:41,100
um non-human intelligence narrative or

2146
01:21:44,630 --> 01:21:42,239
you know if you want to say time

2147
01:21:46,910 --> 01:21:44,640
traveling humans I guess that sure I

2148
01:21:48,830 --> 01:21:46,920
think Midwest put it in an interesting

2149
01:21:51,350 --> 01:21:48,840
way it was like unconventional human

2150
01:21:54,410 --> 01:21:51,360
intelligence or something yeah

2151
01:21:56,030 --> 01:21:54,420
yeah it's just getting so specific it's

2152
01:21:58,070 --> 01:21:56,040
losing all meaning to me at that point

2153
01:21:59,630 --> 01:21:58,080
sure yeah you have to appease everybody

2154
01:22:01,430 --> 01:21:59,640
though or otherwise he's

2155
01:22:04,430 --> 01:22:01,440
yeah

2156
01:22:07,370 --> 01:22:04,440
you know the um condyn report

2157
01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:07,380
the author yes

2158
01:22:11,330 --> 01:22:09,840
um he apparently was not allowed to um

2159
01:22:14,270 --> 01:22:11,340
talk to

2160
01:22:16,669 --> 01:22:14,280
the people who'd made the reports yes

2161
01:22:18,910 --> 01:22:16,679
um which I guess is one of the

2162
01:22:21,110 --> 01:22:18,920
disadvantages of uh through the secret

2163
01:22:24,890 --> 01:22:21,120
research right

2164
01:22:27,950 --> 01:22:24,900
um but um I think he also was not

2165
01:22:31,070 --> 01:22:27,960
allowed to talk to any scientists even

2166
01:22:33,590 --> 01:22:31,080
um yeah I was too uh secret yeah yeah

2167
01:22:35,330 --> 01:22:33,600
and that's one of the the critiques that

2168
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:35,340
uh David Clark has made

2169
01:22:39,709 --> 01:22:37,440
um but do you think in a way that's

2170
01:22:41,330 --> 01:22:39,719
actually a blessing in disguise because

2171
01:22:43,370 --> 01:22:41,340
um as you were mentioning Nick earlier

2172
01:22:44,930 --> 01:22:43,380
about like Michigan and the Hudson

2173
01:22:47,470 --> 01:22:44,940
Valley report

2174
01:22:50,570 --> 01:22:47,480
um people later come out with his like

2175
01:22:52,669 --> 01:22:50,580
completely different or you know very

2176
01:22:55,310 --> 01:22:52,679
the tail gets taller in the telling

2177
01:22:57,950 --> 01:22:55,320
right so those are original reports are

2178
01:23:00,470 --> 01:22:57,960
sort of locked in time so the um the

2179
01:23:03,110 --> 01:23:00,480
witnesses can't you know [\h__\h] it up

2180
01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:05,390
right

2181
01:23:10,610 --> 01:23:08,159
I am when we talked to about having

2182
01:23:12,110 --> 01:23:10,620
these kind of modern Frameworks for

2183
01:23:14,870 --> 01:23:12,120
interpreting events right like talking

2184
01:23:16,550 --> 01:23:14,880
about the role that like culture and

2185
01:23:18,770 --> 01:23:16,560
media and religion has on these

2186
01:23:21,050 --> 01:23:18,780
experiences and just at a higher level

2187
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:21,060
it reminds me or it makes me think of

2188
01:23:27,290 --> 01:23:23,760
just how malleable reality is in our

2189
01:23:28,910 --> 01:23:27,300
perceptions right and how you know we

2190
01:23:30,830 --> 01:23:28,920
like to think that we have this

2191
01:23:33,350 --> 01:23:30,840
objective sense of what's going on

2192
01:23:35,930 --> 01:23:33,360
around us at any given time both at a

2193
01:23:38,090 --> 01:23:35,940
small and a large scale but the reality

2194
01:23:39,770 --> 01:23:38,100
is that we're really just I mean again

2195
01:23:42,229 --> 01:23:39,780
going down the Buddhist hole we're just

2196
01:23:45,169 --> 01:23:42,239
this sort of like empty Network built up

2197
01:23:47,689 --> 01:23:45,179
of nodes of different references and um

2198
01:23:48,830 --> 01:23:47,699
cultural and media touch points that we

2199
01:23:50,750 --> 01:23:48,840
use

2200
01:23:52,729 --> 01:23:50,760
um to sort of frame and interpret what

2201
01:23:54,709 --> 01:23:52,739
happens to us like our realities are so

2202
01:23:57,470 --> 01:23:54,719
[\h__\h] constructed

2203
01:23:58,490 --> 01:23:57,480
um wasn't you know rather than being

2204
01:24:00,590 --> 01:23:58,500
innate

2205
01:24:02,870 --> 01:24:00,600
oh sorry uh wasn't the impetus of

2206
01:24:05,209 --> 01:24:02,880
philosophical skepticism kind of uh

2207
01:24:06,890 --> 01:24:05,219
based on the flaws of inductive

2208
01:24:07,930 --> 01:24:06,900
reasoning it's like

2209
01:24:10,010 --> 01:24:07,940
um

2210
01:24:13,490 --> 01:24:10,020
isn't it

2211
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:13,500
this is your area of expertise this is

2212
01:24:19,070 --> 01:24:16,080
right interpretation of it is the just

2213
01:24:21,649 --> 01:24:19,080
kind of like the understanding that

2214
01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:21,659
um subjective now like the distinction

2215
01:24:25,910 --> 01:24:24,000
between a subjective reality based on

2216
01:24:27,770 --> 01:24:25,920
how we experience it and how we draw

2217
01:24:31,610 --> 01:24:27,780
conclusions based on of the collection

2218
01:24:34,610 --> 01:24:31,620
of our experiences can't be

2219
01:24:36,110 --> 01:24:34,620
um necessarily trusted as objective

2220
01:24:38,870 --> 01:24:36,120
reality and that was kind of like the

2221
01:24:41,149 --> 01:24:38,880
beginning of skepticism where like there

2222
01:24:42,709 --> 01:24:41,159
are deductive truths like math and

2223
01:24:45,169 --> 01:24:42,719
things like that and then there's uh

2224
01:24:46,490 --> 01:24:45,179
inductive based on our experiences I

2225
01:24:49,250 --> 01:24:46,500
think I made a joke about this a long

2226
01:24:51,649 --> 01:24:49,260
time ago in a space using solely

2227
01:24:53,870 --> 01:24:51,659
inductive logic will tell you that the

2228
01:24:56,149 --> 01:24:53,880
world is flat we need like that outside

2229
01:24:58,250 --> 01:24:56,159
information to kind of confirm because

2230
01:24:59,990 --> 01:24:58,260
walking down the street yeah it looks

2231
01:25:02,810 --> 01:25:00,000
flat I can't personally see the

2232
01:25:04,729 --> 01:25:02,820
curvature of the Earth so inductively I

2233
01:25:07,250 --> 01:25:04,739
would kind of presume that the world is

2234
01:25:09,290 --> 01:25:07,260
flat I I think that that's kind of the

2235
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:09,300
story of where skepticism comes from it

2236
01:25:11,990 --> 01:25:10,800
could be completely wrong about that and

2237
01:25:13,370 --> 01:25:12,000
there to kind of explain why I know

2238
01:25:16,010 --> 01:25:13,380
every no one knows what I'm talking

2239
01:25:18,169 --> 01:25:16,020
about but uh I think no there was

2240
01:25:22,070 --> 01:25:18,179
something along those lines yeah like in

2241
01:25:23,570 --> 01:25:22,080
the mid 1700s uh when the natural world

2242
01:25:26,530 --> 01:25:23,580
was first getting

2243
01:25:28,910 --> 01:25:26,540
more thoroughly investigated through

2244
01:25:31,370 --> 01:25:28,920
understandings of well interestingly

2245
01:25:33,890 --> 01:25:31,380
electromagnetism that's when people

2246
01:25:37,310 --> 01:25:33,900
started coming together and uh with the

2247
01:25:41,930 --> 01:25:37,320
Royal Society they established the uh

2248
01:25:44,270 --> 01:25:41,940
invisible College in 17 uh 1760 roughly

2249
01:25:46,510 --> 01:25:44,280
if we take our invisible sat as we might

2250
01:25:49,970 --> 01:25:46,520
one day get in

2251
01:25:51,890 --> 01:25:49,980
well I'm not sure those will be tough

2252
01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:51,900
because the Royal Society is uh I think

2253
01:25:57,830 --> 01:25:55,260
the longest standing uh natural uh

2254
01:26:00,169 --> 01:25:57,840
philosophy Association in the world but

2255
01:26:02,570 --> 01:26:00,179
um yeah no that's uh it's interesting

2256
01:26:04,729 --> 01:26:02,580
like originally like the uh experiments

2257
01:26:06,590 --> 01:26:04,739
around lightning when

2258
01:26:08,209 --> 01:26:06,600
um you know it was demonstrated that the

2259
01:26:11,810 --> 01:26:08,219
little spark you could produce from

2260
01:26:13,850 --> 01:26:11,820
static electricity appears to behave the

2261
01:26:15,649 --> 01:26:13,860
same as Lightning like that's like okay

2262
01:26:18,229 --> 01:26:15,659
and then you can replicate that

2263
01:26:20,689 --> 01:26:18,239
experiment in charge of a crappy battery

2264
01:26:22,070 --> 01:26:20,699
that you built the same way regardless

2265
01:26:24,709 --> 01:26:22,080
of whether you're in North America or in

2266
01:26:26,810 --> 01:26:24,719
your France if you're in France that's

2267
01:26:29,450 --> 01:26:26,820
that's the foundation of it you have to

2268
01:26:30,950 --> 01:26:29,460
be able to explain how somebody else can

2269
01:26:34,310 --> 01:26:30,960
replicate what you're claiming to be

2270
01:26:36,530 --> 01:26:34,320
true without that exactly like uh it

2271
01:26:38,689 --> 01:26:36,540
falls apart and then you get subjected

2272
01:26:40,610 --> 01:26:38,699
to uh these sort of arguments like uh

2273
01:26:42,890 --> 01:26:40,620
more people that see it the more true it

2274
01:26:44,030 --> 01:26:42,900
is right we know that's not good is

2275
01:26:49,010 --> 01:26:44,040
there any

2276
01:26:50,209 --> 01:26:49,020
um historical footage of UFOs uh that

2277
01:26:52,610 --> 01:26:50,219
kind of

2278
01:26:53,990 --> 01:26:52,620
I'm not talking about the um the Nimitz

2279
01:26:56,930 --> 01:26:54,000
or the uh

2280
01:26:58,610 --> 01:26:56,940
the other ones the Gimbal and the um go

2281
01:27:01,729 --> 01:26:58,620
fast although maybe those are

2282
01:27:03,830 --> 01:27:01,739
explainable by plasma type phenomena but

2283
01:27:04,669 --> 01:27:03,840
do you know of any other

2284
01:27:07,250 --> 01:27:04,679
um

2285
01:27:08,990 --> 01:27:07,260
famous footage that sort of

2286
01:27:12,229 --> 01:27:09,000
you know that you find personally

2287
01:27:15,709 --> 01:27:12,239
intriguing and could be explained by

2288
01:27:19,550 --> 01:27:15,719
by plasma bull lightning yeah it's hard

2289
01:27:21,649 --> 01:27:19,560
to say uh valet has a uh paper I believe

2290
01:27:23,930 --> 01:27:21,659
published in the Journal of scientific

2291
01:27:25,850 --> 01:27:23,940
exploration as well uh if I remember

2292
01:27:27,830 --> 01:27:25,860
right is from like the mid 90s it's

2293
01:27:30,770 --> 01:27:27,840
called like observations of the

2294
01:27:32,689 --> 01:27:30,780
Luminosity of five UFOs or something

2295
01:27:35,930 --> 01:27:32,699
like that and he goes through like five

2296
01:27:38,390 --> 01:27:35,940
highly luminous uh UFO cases

2297
01:27:40,010 --> 01:27:38,400
um and he uh tries to assess the power

2298
01:27:42,709 --> 01:27:40,020
that would be required to create the

2299
01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:42,719
light source and in that I believe there

2300
01:27:45,709 --> 01:27:44,400
are a couple that they claim to have

2301
01:27:48,050 --> 01:27:45,719
videos I haven't watched those videos

2302
01:27:49,490 --> 01:27:48,060
but the objects he describes have all

2303
01:27:51,290 --> 01:27:49,500
the exact same features as what we've

2304
01:27:53,810 --> 01:27:51,300
been talking about so it would be a

2305
01:27:57,290 --> 01:27:53,820
close match there

2306
01:27:59,689 --> 01:27:57,300
um that said I'm very uh resistant to

2307
01:28:02,209 --> 01:27:59,699
getting into individual cases at this

2308
01:28:04,430 --> 01:28:02,219
point because when I started uh to talk

2309
01:28:06,950 --> 01:28:04,440
about this stuff in 2021 I reached out

2310
01:28:09,410 --> 01:28:06,960
to a bunch of people I ended up uh you

2311
01:28:12,950 --> 01:28:09,420
know on the singularity lab with Michael

2312
01:28:15,110 --> 01:28:12,960
mataluni then I went on UCR and then I

2313
01:28:18,229 --> 01:28:15,120
uh they had me on the big phone home to

2314
01:28:20,270 --> 01:28:18,239
do Michael gave me an hour like you know

2315
01:28:22,970 --> 01:28:20,280
talk with me to plan an hour out to do

2316
01:28:25,970 --> 01:28:22,980
the sort of plasma stuff and then uh

2317
01:28:27,590 --> 01:28:25,980
Daniel Miller and stuff so it's like

2318
01:28:28,970 --> 01:28:27,600
um

2319
01:28:30,590 --> 01:28:28,980
you know there's

2320
01:28:32,810 --> 01:28:30,600
there's been this long history with me

2321
01:28:35,810 --> 01:28:32,820
of trying to engage on the case study

2322
01:28:37,490 --> 01:28:35,820
side of it and I used the Nimitz uh as

2323
01:28:39,590 --> 01:28:37,500
an example when I first got us got

2324
01:28:41,870 --> 01:28:39,600
started and there was so much pushback

2325
01:28:43,550 --> 01:28:41,880
about every single individual element of

2326
01:28:46,370 --> 01:28:43,560
it that I realized very quickly that it

2327
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:46,380
was like counter productive to try to

2328
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:49,199
start like showing how certain cases

2329
01:28:53,450 --> 01:28:50,400
might be able to fit into the

2330
01:28:55,910 --> 01:28:53,460
information I realized that this sort of

2331
01:28:57,649 --> 01:28:55,920
deeper level uh the approaching it from

2332
01:29:00,050 --> 01:28:57,659
the philosophical perspective after

2333
01:29:03,050 --> 01:29:00,060
doing some reason I I started doing

2334
01:29:04,070 --> 01:29:03,060
research I was like why when and we

2335
01:29:05,870 --> 01:29:04,080
haven't even gotten into all the other

2336
01:29:09,770 --> 01:29:05,880
stuff but why when there is so much

2337
01:29:12,410 --> 01:29:09,780
information that is so clear on the

2338
01:29:14,209 --> 01:29:12,420
subject can I not get people to actually

2339
01:29:15,649 --> 01:29:14,219
just not listen to me because it has

2340
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:15,659
nothing to do with me but read the

2341
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:17,040
information if they say they're so

2342
01:29:21,229 --> 01:29:19,679
interested in this subject and I

2343
01:29:22,430 --> 01:29:21,239
couldn't wrap my head around it I just

2344
01:29:25,189 --> 01:29:22,440
started reading about it and then I

2345
01:29:27,770 --> 01:29:25,199
realized through the published papers on

2346
01:29:30,290 --> 01:29:27,780
the subject of like people processing

2347
01:29:34,010 --> 01:29:30,300
information that it was based around

2348
01:29:37,010 --> 01:29:34,020
like more about identity than about the

2349
01:29:38,750 --> 01:29:37,020
actual information content and so I

2350
01:29:41,510 --> 01:29:38,760
decided to stop trying to do the sort of

2351
01:29:43,430 --> 01:29:41,520
like step-by-step evidence of why a case

2352
01:29:45,290 --> 01:29:43,440
could fit to the information instead I

2353
01:29:48,169 --> 01:29:45,300
just sort of lay it like my website is

2354
01:29:50,209 --> 01:29:48,179
based on laying out the information with

2355
01:29:51,950 --> 01:29:50,219
every single sentence cited to the

2356
01:29:53,689 --> 01:29:51,960
source that I got it from like nothing

2357
01:29:57,590 --> 01:29:53,699
on there is from me because I'm nobody

2358
01:30:00,350 --> 01:29:57,600
it's all about the information and

2359
01:30:02,629 --> 01:30:00,360
um maybe like you brought up condyn and

2360
01:30:05,209 --> 01:30:02,639
that's a really neat part of this uh

2361
01:30:08,390 --> 01:30:05,219
just that after I first found those

2362
01:30:10,550 --> 01:30:08,400
physics papers my natural expectation

2363
01:30:13,270 --> 01:30:10,560
instantly I was like

2364
01:30:15,410 --> 01:30:13,280
Obama would know this

2365
01:30:17,390 --> 01:30:15,420
the American the American government

2366
01:30:18,709 --> 01:30:17,400
would know that these things exist so

2367
01:30:20,810 --> 01:30:18,719
what the heck does this mean what's

2368
01:30:23,330 --> 01:30:20,820
going on with that and that's when I

2369
01:30:25,129 --> 01:30:23,340
turned to the National Archives I mean

2370
01:30:26,570 --> 01:30:25,139
but there's like whole other layers of

2371
01:30:29,390 --> 01:30:26,580
conspiracies here that the president

2372
01:30:31,550 --> 01:30:29,400
doesn't actually know very much that

2373
01:30:33,410 --> 01:30:31,560
makes it yeah yeah well that gets into

2374
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:33,420
the interesting speculative territory

2375
01:30:37,370 --> 01:30:35,760
that I I'm happy to get into but uh it

2376
01:30:39,950 --> 01:30:37,380
does distract always from the real

2377
01:30:41,629 --> 01:30:39,960
information uh but it is that is what

2378
01:30:45,169 --> 01:30:41,639
triggered my original interest it's like

2379
01:30:47,810 --> 01:30:45,179
why would Obama be saying this and then

2380
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:47,820
it's like the Americans should have the

2381
01:30:52,370 --> 01:30:50,159
ability to positively identify basically

2382
01:30:54,649 --> 01:30:52,380
anything if they want to that's sort of

2383
01:30:57,590 --> 01:30:54,659
what I pick up from their technological

2384
01:30:58,850 --> 01:30:57,600
situation at this point why is he

2385
01:31:00,470 --> 01:30:58,860
encouraging people to even look at it

2386
01:31:02,030 --> 01:31:00,480
and then it's like well there are all

2387
01:31:04,070 --> 01:31:02,040
these physics papers showing that there

2388
01:31:05,810 --> 01:31:04,080
seem to be objects with these features

2389
01:31:08,390 --> 01:31:05,820
in the atmosphere and they seem to be

2390
01:31:09,550 --> 01:31:08,400
natural why would Obama then encourage

2391
01:31:12,950 --> 01:31:09,560
it that way

2392
01:31:14,290 --> 01:31:12,960
my uh interpretation after all of the

2393
01:31:16,070 --> 01:31:14,300
information including the American

2394
01:31:18,229 --> 01:31:16,080
Declassified records that we haven't

2395
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:18,239
even touched on where they're saying

2396
01:31:21,590 --> 01:31:19,440
over and over that the objects with

2397
01:31:23,090 --> 01:31:21,600
these exact features are probably ball

2398
01:31:25,669 --> 01:31:23,100
lightning

2399
01:31:27,709 --> 01:31:25,679
my assumption was that Obama

2400
01:31:29,570 --> 01:31:27,719
recognized that information was being

2401
01:31:31,070 --> 01:31:29,580
leaked and I thought he was maybe trying

2402
01:31:32,689 --> 01:31:31,080
to get ahead of the story

2403
01:31:34,070 --> 01:31:32,699
by claiming ignorance that was my

2404
01:31:35,030 --> 01:31:34,080
interpretation of that after reading all

2405
01:31:37,490 --> 01:31:35,040
this stuff I don't know if that's true

2406
01:31:40,310 --> 01:31:37,500
or not that's just my personal shape the

2407
01:31:42,169 --> 01:31:40,320
narrative right like but I can't imagine

2408
01:31:43,610 --> 01:31:42,179
him wanting people though to look at it

2409
01:31:45,410 --> 01:31:43,620
because based on the Declassified

2410
01:31:48,229 --> 01:31:45,420
documents the last thing in the world

2411
01:31:49,430 --> 01:31:48,239
that the intelligence services in the

2412
01:31:50,990 --> 01:31:49,440
United States and the United Kingdom

2413
01:31:53,209 --> 01:31:51,000
want are for people to actively think

2414
01:31:56,390 --> 01:31:53,219
about UFOs and that's why his comment

2415
01:31:58,910 --> 01:31:56,400
was so confusing to me yeah people love

2416
01:32:00,430 --> 01:31:58,920
to think about and talk about UFOs I

2417
01:32:03,530 --> 01:32:00,440
know but but

2418
01:32:05,930 --> 01:32:03,540
you always want to talk about it yes

2419
01:32:07,430 --> 01:32:05,940
I think that's a danger I think he was

2420
01:32:09,590 --> 01:32:07,440
probably not aware of a lot of the stuff

2421
01:32:11,330 --> 01:32:09,600
but had read the New York Times paper

2422
01:32:13,010 --> 01:32:11,340
and was just kind of playing off it I

2423
01:32:14,689 --> 01:32:13,020
know um a lot of presidential

2424
01:32:16,370 --> 01:32:14,699
appearances on late night shows the

2425
01:32:18,169 --> 01:32:16,380
topic of UFOs does come up it happened

2426
01:32:20,870 --> 01:32:18,179
with Clinton I know I think it happened

2427
01:32:23,390 --> 01:32:20,880
with Trump even and they kind of give a

2428
01:32:24,830 --> 01:32:23,400
you know kind of a joking response and

2429
01:32:27,610 --> 01:32:24,840
uh and then they were far more

2430
01:32:30,770 --> 01:32:27,620
dismissive is the interesting part sure

2431
01:32:32,810 --> 01:32:30,780
did I say something I mean to one of

2432
01:32:34,430 --> 01:32:32,820
these small mercies of trump may be that

2433
01:32:37,370 --> 01:32:34,440
if he'd actually known something he'd

2434
01:32:40,370 --> 01:32:37,380
would have [\h__\h] spewed it out on TV

2435
01:32:41,930 --> 01:32:40,380
or Twitter like well that's something

2436
01:32:44,510 --> 01:32:41,940
positive of the Shadow government

2437
01:32:47,390 --> 01:32:44,520
conspiracy really and that's actually

2438
01:32:50,090 --> 01:32:47,400
when I was uh speaking with Louise on uh

2439
01:32:51,350 --> 01:32:50,100
on your uh show we talked about this a

2440
01:32:54,649 --> 01:32:51,360
little bit you asked me something to

2441
01:32:56,810 --> 01:32:54,659
this effect and um my and once again

2442
01:32:58,310 --> 01:32:56,820
it's just my interpretation based on the

2443
01:33:01,010 --> 01:32:58,320
documents I've read and stuff but my

2444
01:33:03,169 --> 01:33:01,020
interpretation is that

2445
01:33:05,390 --> 01:33:03,179
the intelligence community in the United

2446
01:33:07,490 --> 01:33:05,400
States appears to maybe have actually

2447
01:33:09,830 --> 01:33:07,500
identified Trump as some degree of

2448
01:33:12,110 --> 01:33:09,840
national security threat and Obama said

2449
01:33:14,090 --> 01:33:12,120
he was briefed on UFOs right he has said

2450
01:33:16,370 --> 01:33:14,100
that now Trump has also claimed he's

2451
01:33:19,310 --> 01:33:16,380
been briefed I suspect because his own

2452
01:33:21,770 --> 01:33:19,320
National Security adviser or his um his

2453
01:33:25,010 --> 01:33:21,780
Director of National Security uh

2454
01:33:27,229 --> 01:33:25,020
Ratcliffe was out on the national news

2455
01:33:28,850 --> 01:33:27,239
saying oh they're all we see these

2456
01:33:30,290 --> 01:33:28,860
things on The Radars or on the

2457
01:33:31,970 --> 01:33:30,300
satellites and they're zipping all over

2458
01:33:34,070 --> 01:33:31,980
we don't know what they're it's like the

2459
01:33:36,169 --> 01:33:34,080
Director of National Intelligence

2460
01:33:37,970 --> 01:33:36,179
was a former Republican Congressman

2461
01:33:40,310 --> 01:33:37,980
right Radcliffe like he doesn't know

2462
01:33:42,530 --> 01:33:40,320
what they are somebody's not briefing

2463
01:33:44,030 --> 01:33:42,540
him he's not briefing Trump you know

2464
01:33:46,189 --> 01:33:44,040
there's something very strange going on

2465
01:33:47,629 --> 01:33:46,199
there so my interpretation of that not

2466
01:33:49,070 --> 01:33:47,639
necessarily correct but my

2467
01:33:50,450 --> 01:33:49,080
interpretation is that they were left

2468
01:33:56,030 --> 01:33:50,460
out of it

2469
01:33:59,930 --> 01:33:57,310
um but yeah

2470
01:34:01,070 --> 01:33:59,940
yeah and we didn't even get into any of

2471
01:34:02,390 --> 01:34:01,080
the government documents because once I

2472
01:34:03,950 --> 01:34:02,400
read all those physics papers I was like

2473
01:34:07,189 --> 01:34:03,960
the government must know about this and

2474
01:34:08,689 --> 01:34:07,199
that's when I turned to the well

2475
01:34:11,270 --> 01:34:08,699
um

2476
01:34:13,250 --> 01:34:11,280
you know well researched uh in the

2477
01:34:15,470 --> 01:34:13,260
National Archives all these documents

2478
01:34:18,709 --> 01:34:15,480
going back and you know

2479
01:34:21,530 --> 01:34:18,719
um like the Robertson panel right

2480
01:34:24,050 --> 01:34:21,540
yeah well before that like uh the FBI in

2481
01:34:26,570 --> 01:34:24,060
1949 that's a Declassified file that was

2482
01:34:29,450 --> 01:34:26,580
Secret at the time uh protection of

2483
01:34:32,030 --> 01:34:29,460
vital installations memo they say there

2484
01:34:33,590 --> 01:34:32,040
are descriptions of these lights they

2485
01:34:34,850 --> 01:34:33,600
have the variety of colors they have

2486
01:34:36,110 --> 01:34:34,860
these features that we said over and

2487
01:34:37,970 --> 01:34:36,120
over again and then they say we don't

2488
01:34:39,770 --> 01:34:37,980
know exactly what they are they might be

2489
01:34:40,970 --> 01:34:39,780
a new Soviet weapon so we got to keep

2490
01:34:44,270 --> 01:34:40,980
our eyes on it we don't know what's

2491
01:34:46,189 --> 01:34:44,280
going on yeah than the U.S Air Force was

2492
01:34:48,050 --> 01:34:46,199
created and then they were assigned

2493
01:34:51,229 --> 01:34:48,060
responsibility and then they created

2494
01:34:52,790 --> 01:34:51,239
project sign in I think 1950 and then

2495
01:34:55,129 --> 01:34:52,800
they switched that into project Grudge

2496
01:34:57,110 --> 01:34:55,139
in I think 1951 and then if I remember

2497
01:35:00,470 --> 01:34:57,120
correctly then they introduced project

2498
01:35:03,290 --> 01:35:00,480
twinkle as a um

2499
01:35:05,390 --> 01:35:03,300
as a field study under project Grudge

2500
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:05,400
and they actually had military personnel

2501
01:35:08,870 --> 01:35:06,960
for nine months Stakeout one of the

2502
01:35:10,910 --> 01:35:08,880
locations of military base that had a

2503
01:35:13,250 --> 01:35:10,920
bunch of observations and then that

2504
01:35:14,810 --> 01:35:13,260
report came back and they said you know

2505
01:35:17,450 --> 01:35:14,820
they described the exact same features

2506
01:35:20,689 --> 01:35:17,460
again and then they have uh descriptions

2507
01:35:22,610 --> 01:35:20,699
from um uh major scientists and stuff

2508
01:35:24,050 --> 01:35:22,620
and uh oh you know I think actually it

2509
01:35:26,030 --> 01:35:24,060
might have been that Los Alamos because

2510
01:35:28,790 --> 01:35:26,040
they cite the lead researcher the

2511
01:35:30,830 --> 01:35:28,800
nuclear researcher dockler Dr Kaplan and

2512
01:35:32,570 --> 01:35:30,840
they have him in there he's saying the

2513
01:35:33,770 --> 01:35:32,580
green Fireballs that keep being observed

2514
01:35:37,330 --> 01:35:33,780
we believe that these are natural

2515
01:35:39,950 --> 01:35:37,340
phenomena and like uh you know not 1951

2516
01:35:42,290 --> 01:35:39,960
and then uh you know then you move into

2517
01:35:45,229 --> 01:35:42,300
the CIA when they start looking at it

2518
01:35:48,350 --> 01:35:45,239
yep they start looking at it after the

2519
01:35:49,910 --> 01:35:48,360
July 1952 Washington DC events which was

2520
01:35:51,290 --> 01:35:49,920
a bunch of luminous objects were

2521
01:35:53,330 --> 01:35:51,300
observed over Washington they were on

2522
01:35:55,550 --> 01:35:53,340
radar the US government scrambled

2523
01:35:56,870 --> 01:35:55,560
fighters to go and engage the objects

2524
01:35:58,250 --> 01:35:56,880
radar operators were looking at them

2525
01:36:00,110 --> 01:35:58,260
through binoculars looking on their

2526
01:36:01,790 --> 01:36:00,120
screens all this crap

2527
01:36:03,890 --> 01:36:01,800
Pilots were calling in being like we're

2528
01:36:05,870 --> 01:36:03,900
in we're in a formation of balls of

2529
01:36:07,209 --> 01:36:05,880
light what do I do and like they were

2530
01:36:09,649 --> 01:36:07,219
not receiving

2531
01:36:11,149 --> 01:36:09,659
responses because the cap commanders

2532
01:36:14,330 --> 01:36:11,159
were like okay whatever they're insane

2533
01:36:16,610 --> 01:36:14,340
or something right so after that radio

2534
01:36:18,350 --> 01:36:16,620
radio wouldn't work if they're close to

2535
01:36:20,229 --> 01:36:18,360
something that has that much like charge

2536
01:36:22,790 --> 01:36:20,239
and stuff like well that's actually

2537
01:36:24,649 --> 01:36:22,800
cocktail well you're right that's an

2538
01:36:27,229 --> 01:36:24,659
actually an interesting thing from the

2539
01:36:30,229 --> 01:36:27,239
Blue Book uh Mino Air Force Base report

2540
01:36:31,850 --> 01:36:30,239
from 1968 that's much later but I'll

2541
01:36:34,250 --> 01:36:31,860
just summarize it very briefly they say

2542
01:36:35,689 --> 01:36:34,260
ball lightning can they talk about the

2543
01:36:37,070 --> 01:36:35,699
Luminous balls of light they're moving

2544
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:37,080
around flying around coming down going

2545
01:36:40,790 --> 01:36:38,400
up all this stuff we always talk about

2546
01:36:43,010 --> 01:36:40,800
they say ball lightning can be painted

2547
01:36:45,530 --> 01:36:43,020
on radar ball lightning does interfere

2548
01:36:48,290 --> 01:36:45,540
with electronic equipment we're likely

2549
01:36:54,649 --> 01:36:51,649
just over and over what um what sort of

2550
01:36:57,830 --> 01:36:54,659
like physiological or

2551
01:36:59,689 --> 01:36:57,840
um like cycle like like I don't know

2552
01:37:01,550 --> 01:36:59,699
what the term would be basically what

2553
01:37:04,370 --> 01:37:01,560
does someone who witnesses or sees or is

2554
01:37:06,050 --> 01:37:04,380
in close proximity to a ball lightning

2555
01:37:09,410 --> 01:37:06,060
or a plasma like what do they actually

2556
01:37:11,750 --> 01:37:09,420
experience well it should like a

2557
01:37:13,850 --> 01:37:11,760
I don't just mean like getting struck by

2558
01:37:15,470 --> 01:37:13,860
lightning straight physicality but even

2559
01:37:17,330 --> 01:37:15,480
just like shifts in Consciousness how

2560
01:37:20,090 --> 01:37:17,340
people exposed to infrasound can

2561
01:37:21,770 --> 01:37:20,100
sometimes experience things yes and

2562
01:37:24,350 --> 01:37:21,780
that's something yeah we've touched on

2563
01:37:27,470 --> 01:37:24,360
uh substantially and this is very uh

2564
01:37:29,990 --> 01:37:27,480
it's hard to uh know for sure because

2565
01:37:32,629 --> 01:37:30,000
there are no uh

2566
01:37:35,270 --> 01:37:32,639
published papers on the subject of close

2567
01:37:37,850 --> 01:37:35,280
proximity to ball lightning now the most

2568
01:37:39,770 --> 01:37:37,860
interesting uh

2569
01:37:42,770 --> 01:37:39,780
most interesting document that I'm aware

2570
01:37:45,890 --> 01:37:42,780
of on that exact subject would be the uh

2571
01:37:49,550 --> 01:37:45,900
what's known as the condyn report uh it

2572
01:37:52,010 --> 01:37:49,560
is formally called the UAP in the UK air

2573
01:37:54,350 --> 01:37:52,020
defense region report it was uh

2574
01:37:57,530 --> 01:37:54,360
completed by the United Kingdom's

2575
01:37:59,689 --> 01:37:57,540
Ministry of Defense a very uh secret

2576
01:38:03,290 --> 01:37:59,699
subsection called defense intelligence

2577
01:38:04,790 --> 01:38:03,300
section 55. they commissioned their top

2578
01:38:06,350 --> 01:38:04,800
radar expert

2579
01:38:09,470 --> 01:38:06,360
um which is an interesting a little

2580
01:38:12,530 --> 01:38:09,480
detail in 1996 he spent 1996 to 2000

2581
01:38:15,410 --> 01:38:12,540
writing this report his objective was to

2582
01:38:18,649 --> 01:38:15,420
compile the last 20 to 30 years of

2583
01:38:22,490 --> 01:38:18,659
military intelligence study of

2584
01:38:24,830 --> 01:38:22,500
um UFOs and to compile information and

2585
01:38:27,229 --> 01:38:24,840
then to provide it to top executive

2586
01:38:30,169 --> 01:38:27,239
leadership in defense intelligence to

2587
01:38:32,030 --> 01:38:30,179
guide policy on the subject so the

2588
01:38:33,950 --> 01:38:32,040
purpose of the report was to be a

2589
01:38:35,689 --> 01:38:33,960
hundred percent accurate with the

2590
01:38:37,550 --> 01:38:35,699
information obviously humans are subject

2591
01:38:40,310 --> 01:38:37,560
to error the intent of the report was to

2592
01:38:41,390 --> 01:38:40,320
be top secret and to guide a policy on

2593
01:38:45,169 --> 01:38:41,400
UFOs

2594
01:38:47,149 --> 01:38:45,179
that report in 2000 was uh published

2595
01:38:48,830 --> 01:38:47,159
within the UK government it was

2596
01:38:50,450 --> 01:38:48,840
distributed to top leadership we know

2597
01:38:52,430 --> 01:38:50,460
that conclusively from reporting from

2598
01:38:54,470 --> 01:38:52,440
the guardian wired BBC News

2599
01:38:59,030 --> 01:38:54,480
that report says

2600
01:39:00,530 --> 01:38:59,040
that UF UAP exist is indisputable and

2601
01:39:02,030 --> 01:39:00,540
then they say we aren't like they're

2602
01:39:04,310 --> 01:39:02,040
saying we aren't talking about generic

2603
01:39:06,290 --> 01:39:04,320
uh yeah it's a seagull they say the

2604
01:39:07,610 --> 01:39:06,300
objects that are luminous that hover

2605
01:39:09,709 --> 01:39:07,620
land accelerate to exceptional

2606
01:39:11,689 --> 01:39:09,719
velocities and VI vanish they can have

2607
01:39:13,370 --> 01:39:11,699
more you're saying the thing I know I'm

2608
01:39:15,470 --> 01:39:13,380
saying it again I've just proven that I

2609
01:39:17,750 --> 01:39:15,480
can't and uh but that the art the

2610
01:39:19,729 --> 01:39:17,760
introductory paragraph says that they

2611
01:39:21,950 --> 01:39:19,739
exist is indisputable and then it

2612
01:39:23,629 --> 01:39:21,960
defines them with the exact features

2613
01:39:26,209 --> 01:39:23,639
that we're talking about so that's it's

2614
01:39:27,950 --> 01:39:26,219
not leaving any room for us to interpret

2615
01:39:30,110 --> 01:39:27,960
it like yeah of course UFOs are whatever

2616
01:39:31,490 --> 01:39:30,120
they're saying no they're UFOs they are

2617
01:39:37,330 --> 01:39:31,500
this exact type of thing and they

2618
01:39:42,770 --> 01:39:40,669
that's right that's right the UK

2619
01:39:46,030 --> 01:39:42,780
um the report that was commissioned and

2620
01:39:49,490 --> 01:39:46,040
distributed to top leadership in the UK

2621
01:39:51,890 --> 01:39:49,500
says UFOs with the most radical features

2622
01:39:53,750 --> 01:39:51,900
due to indisputably exist but it was

2623
01:39:55,729 --> 01:39:53,760
written by a single author and we can't

2624
01:39:58,610 --> 01:39:55,739
verify that that's factually accurate

2625
01:40:01,430 --> 01:39:58,620
but we can verify factually is that top

2626
01:40:03,709 --> 01:40:01,440
UK leadership the especially Military

2627
01:40:06,649 --> 01:40:03,719
Intelligence leadership has been briefed

2628
01:40:07,729 --> 01:40:06,659
for the last 22 years that UFOs with the

2629
01:40:09,770 --> 01:40:07,739
features that we're all talking about

2630
01:40:12,050 --> 01:40:09,780
every day do exist

2631
01:40:14,270 --> 01:40:12,060
and that's pretty interesting even if it

2632
01:40:16,490 --> 01:40:14,280
even if that was an incorrect report

2633
01:40:19,010 --> 01:40:16,500
and then the report says that they are

2634
01:40:20,689 --> 01:40:19,020
almost certainly ball lightning and the

2635
01:40:22,729 --> 01:40:20,699
whole point of this was to get to the

2636
01:40:24,890 --> 01:40:22,739
Consciousness and the physiological

2637
01:40:26,930 --> 01:40:24,900
effects so this report again

2638
01:40:29,810 --> 01:40:26,940
controversially and Nick and I have

2639
01:40:32,270 --> 01:40:29,820
talked about this it uh cites a variety

2640
01:40:35,990 --> 01:40:32,280
of uh studies that have not been

2641
01:40:39,470 --> 01:40:36,000
conclusively verified to say that

2642
01:40:44,570 --> 01:40:39,480
um the uh effects of being in close

2643
01:40:47,750 --> 01:40:44,580
proximity to these objects uh can cause

2644
01:40:51,110 --> 01:40:47,760
a hallucinatory experiences it can cause

2645
01:40:53,030 --> 01:40:51,120
scorching it can cause radiation Burns

2646
01:40:55,010 --> 01:40:53,040
that's what this report says that top

2647
01:40:57,290 --> 01:40:55,020
leadership in the UK was briefed on we

2648
01:40:59,750 --> 01:40:57,300
don't know that that is true right

2649
01:41:02,870 --> 01:40:59,760
because there have not been proven cases

2650
01:41:04,430 --> 01:41:02,880
in reality but we what we do know is the

2651
01:41:06,350 --> 01:41:04,440
top Military Intelligence leadership in

2652
01:41:07,550 --> 01:41:06,360
the UK has been told that this is true

2653
01:41:11,209 --> 01:41:07,560
right

2654
01:41:13,970 --> 01:41:11,219
some somebody just asked um Chase

2655
01:41:17,270 --> 01:41:13,980
um asked if that bull lining can cause

2656
01:41:19,550 --> 01:41:17,280
radiation Burns and um

2657
01:41:21,590 --> 01:41:19,560
um yeah so um

2658
01:41:25,270 --> 01:41:21,600
that just made me think of like some

2659
01:41:28,250 --> 01:41:25,280
cases like the um cash Landrum case yeah

2660
01:41:29,870 --> 01:41:28,260
from Brazil which you know maybe they

2661
01:41:31,790 --> 01:41:29,880
they did involve ball lightning but we

2662
01:41:34,490 --> 01:41:31,800
can't you know as you mentioned we can't

2663
01:41:37,850 --> 01:41:34,500
verify that yet yes

2664
01:41:39,770 --> 01:41:37,860
yeah and uh yeah absolutely like

2665
01:41:41,149 --> 01:41:39,780
you know and it goes back in through

2666
01:41:43,070 --> 01:41:41,159
history there are like you know you can

2667
01:41:44,870 --> 01:41:43,080
cite over and over these instances like

2668
01:41:47,450 --> 01:41:44,880
one that I've seen regularly is that

2669
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:47,460
like if you actually look at um uh

2670
01:41:51,410 --> 01:41:49,440
Blinded By The Light in the desert uh

2671
01:41:54,229 --> 01:41:51,420
Saint Paul on the road to Damascus he

2672
01:41:58,370 --> 01:41:54,239
describes a light coming down flying

2673
01:42:00,709 --> 01:41:58,380
around approaching him he hears the

2674
01:42:02,510 --> 01:42:00,719
voice but he does not see and then it's

2675
01:42:04,490 --> 01:42:02,520
like then the other version of the story

2676
01:42:05,990 --> 01:42:04,500
says his servants saw the light but did

2677
01:42:09,109 --> 01:42:06,000
not hear the voice

2678
01:42:11,030 --> 01:42:09,119
and then he cannot eat he can't drink he

2679
01:42:14,390 --> 01:42:11,040
has TR a weakness for the next three

2680
01:42:17,330 --> 01:42:15,470
what is that sounds like radiation

2681
01:42:18,830 --> 01:42:17,340
poisoning exactly but we can't say that

2682
01:42:20,890 --> 01:42:18,840
that's true we can't say that ultimate

2683
01:42:23,930 --> 01:42:20,900
psychedelic yeah

2684
01:42:28,070 --> 01:42:23,940
so there are these instances of a light

2685
01:42:30,770 --> 01:42:28,080
comes at you you experience things and

2686
01:42:34,689 --> 01:42:30,780
then you wake up later it's interesting

2687
01:42:37,490 --> 01:42:34,699
to note that uh lightning strike victims

2688
01:42:40,669 --> 01:42:37,500
uh experience this kind of thing they if

2689
01:42:42,709 --> 01:42:40,679
they get struck they can become

2690
01:42:44,590 --> 01:42:42,719
um uh knocked out they can wake up with

2691
01:42:47,090 --> 01:42:44,600
amnesia

2692
01:42:49,010 --> 01:42:47,100
you know it's uh and those are in the um

2693
01:42:50,629 --> 01:42:49,020
the peer review papers on the subject as

2694
01:42:52,629 --> 01:42:50,639
well so so there's a lot of consistency

2695
01:42:56,149 --> 01:42:52,639
between what you would expect

2696
01:42:58,609 --> 01:42:56,159
potentially from a close encounter with

2697
01:43:01,550 --> 01:42:58,619
a high uh radiation you know ball

2698
01:43:03,890 --> 01:43:01,560
lightning uh object and then

2699
01:43:05,870 --> 01:43:03,900
these uh you know these subjective

2700
01:43:07,189 --> 01:43:05,880
experiences there's a lot of closeness

2701
01:43:10,189 --> 01:43:07,199
in what you would expect but we can't

2702
01:43:12,950 --> 01:43:10,199
verify that in any way sure

2703
01:43:16,970 --> 01:43:12,960
getting to the technical aspect of

2704
01:43:18,050 --> 01:43:16,980
measuring this phenomenon or phenomena

2705
01:43:20,390 --> 01:43:18,060
um

2706
01:43:23,930 --> 01:43:20,400
so what do you think is like the best

2707
01:43:26,090 --> 01:43:23,940
setup in terms of like equipment and um

2708
01:43:29,209 --> 01:43:26,100
location for trying to get like high

2709
01:43:32,330 --> 01:43:29,219
quality spectral data which is really

2710
01:43:35,990 --> 01:43:32,340
you know what's um decisive here and

2711
01:43:38,750 --> 01:43:36,000
what sort of costs are involved in that

2712
01:43:42,050 --> 01:43:38,760
it's a good question uh I would look

2713
01:43:45,290 --> 01:43:42,060
directly to the 2014 paper and it's

2714
01:43:48,050 --> 01:43:45,300
interesting actually because the

2715
01:43:50,629 --> 01:43:48,060
um ball lightning that was captured in

2716
01:43:53,629 --> 01:43:50,639
that uh recording

2717
01:43:55,669 --> 01:43:53,639
was you know four feet across 16 feet uh

2718
01:43:57,590 --> 01:43:55,679
diameter approximately total with the

2719
01:43:58,370 --> 01:43:57,600
Luminous aura or whatever you want to

2720
01:44:01,129 --> 01:43:58,380
call it

2721
01:44:03,770 --> 01:44:01,139
um now but the actual in terms of pixels

2722
01:44:05,090 --> 01:44:03,780
it's like you know like 30 pixels across

2723
01:44:07,070 --> 01:44:05,100
or something it was like two kilometers

2724
01:44:09,590 --> 01:44:07,080
from the sensor system but the

2725
01:44:11,510 --> 01:44:09,600
spectrograph was sufficient quality that

2726
01:44:13,310 --> 01:44:11,520
they captured the resolution of the

2727
01:44:15,050 --> 01:44:13,320
light coming off of it to such an extent

2728
01:44:17,149 --> 01:44:15,060
that they could accurately describe

2729
01:44:19,129 --> 01:44:17,159
exactly what chemicals and like what

2730
01:44:22,070 --> 01:44:19,139
elements were involved in the source of

2731
01:44:25,550 --> 01:44:22,080
that light and so that was enough to

2732
01:44:27,229 --> 01:44:25,560
enable uh positive verification and it's

2733
01:44:29,629 --> 01:44:27,239
funny to me that in the modern sort of

2734
01:44:31,310 --> 01:44:29,639
conversation we've got sort of and uh

2735
01:44:34,129 --> 01:44:31,320
you know I like Mick West but he says

2736
01:44:37,550 --> 01:44:34,139
stuff like I want triangulated 4K

2737
01:44:40,910 --> 01:44:37,560
resolution of the UFO based on this

2738
01:44:44,330 --> 01:44:40,920
would be nice well and also if you had

2739
01:44:46,189 --> 01:44:44,340
the three 4K resolution cameras that

2740
01:44:48,290 --> 01:44:46,199
would not get published in physical

2741
01:44:50,209 --> 01:44:48,300
review letters it would be inadequate

2742
01:44:53,270 --> 01:44:50,219
from an actual scientific perspective

2743
01:44:55,189 --> 01:44:53,280
you need the spectrographic evidence to

2744
01:44:56,229 --> 01:44:55,199
prove the actual nature of what you're

2745
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:56,239
looking at

2746
01:45:03,590 --> 01:44:59,520
and so we have this obsession with a

2747
01:45:05,510 --> 01:45:03,600
high resolution visual of the object

2748
01:45:08,030 --> 01:45:05,520
based on what I've read that is an

2749
01:45:10,310 --> 01:45:08,040
inaccurate way of trying to prove this

2750
01:45:12,530 --> 01:45:10,320
thing basically if we want to even say

2751
01:45:14,149 --> 01:45:12,540
ball lightning is entirely separate from

2752
01:45:15,709 --> 01:45:14,159
what UFOs are let's say they're

2753
01:45:18,470 --> 01:45:15,719
completely discreet

2754
01:45:21,709 --> 01:45:18,480
the case study from ball lightning

2755
01:45:24,010 --> 01:45:21,719
shows us step by step how you prove one

2756
01:45:26,930 --> 01:45:24,020
of these slippery phenomena

2757
01:45:28,010 --> 01:45:26,940
how much of these things cost the high

2758
01:45:29,149 --> 01:45:28,020
spectral

2759
01:45:31,490 --> 01:45:29,159
uh

2760
01:45:34,250 --> 01:45:31,500
yeah more could they become more

2761
01:45:35,870 --> 01:45:34,260
ubiquitous I think they absolutely are

2762
01:45:39,350 --> 01:45:35,880
becoming like they're gonna get super

2763
01:45:41,930 --> 01:45:39,360
chats so we can buy one okay yeah like

2764
01:45:44,209 --> 01:45:41,940
share subscribe guys I know that like it

2765
01:45:45,470 --> 01:45:44,219
was like 15 years ago or something in an

2766
01:45:46,729 --> 01:45:45,480
interview I saw I mean I didn't see it

2767
01:45:48,050 --> 01:45:46,739
15 years ago I saw an interview from

2768
01:45:49,910 --> 01:45:48,060
like 15 years ago with one of the

2769
01:45:52,250 --> 01:45:49,920
hezdalen uh professors the assistant

2770
01:45:53,750 --> 01:45:52,260
professor Bjorn houg actually he's

2771
01:45:56,629 --> 01:45:53,760
talking about how he doesn't have enough

2772
01:45:58,609 --> 01:45:56,639
of a budget to buy a spectral camera

2773
01:46:01,129 --> 01:45:58,619
capable of actually proving what he's

2774
01:46:03,290 --> 01:46:01,139
seeing uh I I can't remember like the

2775
01:46:05,930 --> 01:46:03,300
price that he sites is like he needs 25

2776
01:46:07,129 --> 01:46:05,940
000 bucks for it or something and like I

2777
01:46:10,129 --> 01:46:07,139
don't know if that's accurate or not but

2778
01:46:12,290 --> 01:46:10,139
they're quite pricey certainly yeah but

2779
01:46:15,350 --> 01:46:12,300
they're so pricey then not even Brandon

2780
01:46:19,129 --> 01:46:15,360
Fogel can afford one and yeah that's the

2781
01:46:24,370 --> 01:46:19,139
real uh kicker yeah yeah it's it's like

2782
01:46:27,470 --> 01:46:24,380
it feels a lot like uh people who have a

2783
01:46:28,330 --> 01:46:27,480
economic incentive to keep the mystery

2784
01:46:34,010 --> 01:46:28,340
going

2785
01:46:35,990 --> 01:46:34,020
that works right yeah yeah why is

2786
01:46:37,609 --> 01:46:36,000
nothing straightforward in this entire

2787
01:46:38,930 --> 01:46:37,619
subject

2788
01:46:41,689 --> 01:46:38,940
nothing

2789
01:46:44,510 --> 01:46:41,699
with ugly and different motivations well

2790
01:46:47,030 --> 01:46:44,520
and optimized towards truth and once

2791
01:46:49,850 --> 01:46:47,040
again the uh that's uh the government

2792
01:46:53,149 --> 01:46:49,860
records allow us to not even speculate

2793
01:46:54,709 --> 01:46:53,159
uh we don't have to even imagine what

2794
01:46:57,590 --> 01:46:54,719
the government's trying to achieve with

2795
01:47:00,590 --> 01:46:57,600
their policy we can actually read the

2796
01:47:02,510 --> 01:47:00,600
Declassified internal Communications

2797
01:47:04,430 --> 01:47:02,520
that they themselves are talking to each

2798
01:47:06,169 --> 01:47:04,440
other about what they're trying to

2799
01:47:10,010 --> 01:47:06,179
accomplish on this subject

2800
01:47:13,310 --> 01:47:10,020
and it is entirely based on their fear

2801
01:47:15,649 --> 01:47:13,320
of foreign adversaries Russia Soviet

2802
01:47:18,830 --> 01:47:15,659
Union what Jason colavitos focused on so

2803
01:47:20,810 --> 01:47:18,840
heavily that the so the Russians are uh

2804
01:47:25,510 --> 01:47:20,820
historically Soviets use this as a way

2805
01:47:29,810 --> 01:47:25,520
of creating social Strife by like UFOs

2806
01:47:32,750 --> 01:47:29,820
and think about this think about UFO

2807
01:47:35,149 --> 01:47:32,760
researchers trying to prove aliens think

2808
01:47:39,350 --> 01:47:35,159
about the Freedom of Information access

2809
01:47:42,590 --> 01:47:39,360
system and creating an army of dedicated

2810
01:47:44,450 --> 01:47:42,600
people who are exclusively motivated to

2811
01:47:46,970 --> 01:47:44,460
get every single piece of information

2812
01:47:47,750 --> 01:47:46,980
possible from the most secret things out

2813
01:47:50,270 --> 01:47:47,760
there

2814
01:47:51,950 --> 01:47:50,280
this this reminds me of like like one of

2815
01:47:53,930 --> 01:47:51,960
the most aesthetically pleasing

2816
01:47:56,270 --> 01:47:53,940
conspiracies I've heard is that string

2817
01:47:58,370 --> 01:47:56,280
theory was developed as an OP to

2818
01:48:01,609 --> 01:47:58,380
distract physics research for the last

2819
01:48:04,729 --> 01:48:01,619
20 years and like all this stuff I mean

2820
01:48:10,970 --> 01:48:04,739
from Weinstein himself yes yeah it's

2821
01:48:14,590 --> 01:48:12,590
I shouldn't have a myth to create like

2822
01:48:16,910 --> 01:48:14,600
institutional and bureaucratic friction

2823
01:48:19,129 --> 01:48:16,920
and undermine trust in the government

2824
01:48:20,570 --> 01:48:19,139
like we've talked about that right and I

2825
01:48:22,970 --> 01:48:20,580
think that that's why the alt-right like

2826
01:48:26,990 --> 01:48:22,980
this is why like Tucker Carlson does not

2827
01:48:28,370 --> 01:48:27,000
give a [\h__\h] about UFOs sure he loves to

2828
01:48:30,109 --> 01:48:28,380
undermine the government and

2829
01:48:33,290 --> 01:48:30,119
institutions of record and unwind

2830
01:48:36,169 --> 01:48:33,300
consensus reality yeah UFOs are a great

2831
01:48:39,350 --> 01:48:36,179
vehicle for doing that right like of

2832
01:48:41,450 --> 01:48:39,360
course duh yeah and that was part of uh

2833
01:48:44,209 --> 01:48:41,460
what got me interested originally was

2834
01:48:46,609 --> 01:48:44,219
that the idea of the objects being

2835
01:48:50,090 --> 01:48:46,619
impervious to the American government's

2836
01:48:52,070 --> 01:48:50,100
scrutiny defied my world view because it

2837
01:48:54,530 --> 01:48:52,080
was something stepping outside of

2838
01:48:57,410 --> 01:48:54,540
expectation in that way right like

2839
01:49:03,490 --> 01:48:57,420
contradicting right the established uh

2840
01:49:09,830 --> 01:49:06,729
ever touched an alien do we know

2841
01:49:12,649 --> 01:49:09,840
what we do have uh actually uh there's

2842
01:49:14,149 --> 01:49:12,659
an excellent journalist uh based out of

2843
01:49:15,830 --> 01:49:14,159
um I think he's in North Bay now I think

2844
01:49:18,470 --> 01:49:15,840
he was originally from Toronto Daniel

2845
01:49:20,689 --> 01:49:18,480
Otis he's been on UCR several times he

2846
01:49:23,390 --> 01:49:20,699
worked for vice I'm not sure if he still

2847
01:49:24,950 --> 01:49:23,400
works for vice but he uh has done a huge

2848
01:49:27,350 --> 01:49:24,960
amount of work on this

2849
01:49:29,689 --> 01:49:27,360
uh we know that the Canadian defense

2850
01:49:31,669 --> 01:49:29,699
minister was briefed on it a couple

2851
01:49:33,290 --> 01:49:31,679
years ago there was just sort of like no

2852
01:49:35,689 --> 01:49:33,300
there's nothing going on here

2853
01:49:39,050 --> 01:49:35,699
um what we do know historically is um

2854
01:49:43,070 --> 01:49:39,060
there's a man uh named Chris Rutkowski

2855
01:49:45,350 --> 01:49:43,080
he is a academic he's out of um

2856
01:49:48,350 --> 01:49:45,360
I think University of uh

2857
01:49:50,810 --> 01:49:48,360
of Regina or something but uh anyway he

2858
01:49:52,729 --> 01:49:50,820
ended up in the if I remember correctly

2859
01:49:54,290 --> 01:49:52,739
the story it's a such a classic kind of

2860
01:49:56,750 --> 01:49:54,300
like Canadian small town type thing

2861
01:49:58,910 --> 01:49:56,760
almost like he was like talking he was

2862
01:50:01,070 --> 01:49:58,920
doing research with I think the national

2863
01:50:02,450 --> 01:50:01,080
uh archives or something in the 90s he

2864
01:50:05,450 --> 01:50:02,460
ended up talking to somebody involved

2865
01:50:06,709 --> 01:50:05,460
with like receiving the radar return or

2866
01:50:10,310 --> 01:50:06,719
the the

2867
01:50:13,609 --> 01:50:10,320
um the reports created by the aviation

2868
01:50:15,590 --> 01:50:13,619
Authority when a UFO is observed and

2869
01:50:16,490 --> 01:50:15,600
then this person he was talking to was

2870
01:50:18,169 --> 01:50:16,500
saying like we don't know what to do

2871
01:50:19,609 --> 01:50:18,179
with these things he's interested in

2872
01:50:21,830 --> 01:50:19,619
UFOs and he's just straight upset to the

2873
01:50:24,530 --> 01:50:21,840
guy like all takes them all archive them

2874
01:50:26,930 --> 01:50:24,540
and since the 90s the uh you know the

2875
01:50:29,149 --> 01:50:26,940
official Canadian government reporting

2876
01:50:31,370 --> 01:50:29,159
agency just forwards all of the cases to

2877
01:50:33,950 --> 01:50:31,380
this random guy

2878
01:50:35,390 --> 01:50:33,960
um and uh he talks about it often on

2879
01:50:36,770 --> 01:50:35,400
shows and stuff seems like a nice guy

2880
01:50:40,010 --> 01:50:36,780
but uh like you know that's the level

2881
01:50:41,870 --> 01:50:40,020
okay but one more question for you

2882
01:50:45,050 --> 01:50:41,880
um what's it like living in a country

2883
01:50:48,609 --> 01:50:45,060
that doesn't have brain worms oh what's

2884
01:50:53,149 --> 01:50:51,470
the fact that the fact that like you

2885
01:50:55,310 --> 01:50:53,159
like Canada can

2886
01:50:59,149 --> 01:50:55,320
instant Purge this subject in a reasoned

2887
01:51:02,030 --> 01:50:59,159
and not insane way honestly I'm I'm

2888
01:51:04,850 --> 01:51:02,040
regularly very thankful for a living

2889
01:51:06,890 --> 01:51:04,860
where I live it must be nice yeah uh the

2890
01:51:09,649 --> 01:51:06,900
biggest single thing uh is Healthcare

2891
01:51:13,070 --> 01:51:09,659
Universal Health Care uh you know that's

2892
01:51:15,649 --> 01:51:13,080
just it it gives me absolute freedom in

2893
01:51:17,810 --> 01:51:15,659
a way that I can't understand why y'all

2894
01:51:19,790 --> 01:51:17,820
down in America love and freedom don't

2895
01:51:21,169 --> 01:51:19,800
want freedom to quit your job and not

2896
01:51:22,850 --> 01:51:21,179
have to worry about bankrupting your

2897
01:51:24,410 --> 01:51:22,860
phone oh I know this is this is what

2898
01:51:26,510 --> 01:51:24,420
this is my impetus to go back to work

2899
01:51:28,070 --> 01:51:26,520
I'm paying like 1200 bucks a month for

2900
01:51:30,109 --> 01:51:28,080
health care right now and it's not even

2901
01:51:31,790 --> 01:51:30,119
complete I still have to pay if I go to

2902
01:51:34,129 --> 01:51:31,800
a doctor it doesn't really think there's

2903
01:51:36,290 --> 01:51:34,139
like a copay absolutely insane yeah a

2904
01:51:37,729 --> 01:51:36,300
nightmare yeah so but yes yeah it's nice

2905
01:51:39,530 --> 01:51:37,739
to work in a country that where things

2906
01:51:45,129 --> 01:51:39,540
at least functional infrastructure is

2907
01:51:49,790 --> 01:51:47,270
which country do you think has got the

2908
01:51:54,350 --> 01:51:49,800
most um reasonable

2909
01:51:56,810 --> 01:51:54,360
approach to UFO's UAP

2910
01:51:58,790 --> 01:51:56,820
that's a really interesting government

2911
01:52:00,470 --> 01:51:58,800
engagement I mean at the government

2912
01:52:02,810 --> 01:52:00,480
level

2913
01:52:05,090 --> 01:52:02,820
okay because I know that like France and

2914
01:52:06,770 --> 01:52:05,100
Brazil and um

2915
01:52:08,209 --> 01:52:06,780
what's another country some countries

2916
01:52:12,250 --> 01:52:08,219
and other countries in South America

2917
01:52:15,109 --> 01:52:12,260
some other country Africa Asia Africa

2918
01:52:17,510 --> 01:52:15,119
some take it seriously yeah and it's

2919
01:52:19,310 --> 01:52:17,520
like an interesting question like okay I

2920
01:52:21,290 --> 01:52:19,320
have a suspicion I can't prove it

2921
01:52:23,090 --> 01:52:21,300
obviously I have a suspicion that the

2922
01:52:25,430 --> 01:52:23,100
Chinese government might actually know

2923
01:52:27,709 --> 01:52:25,440
what's going on in part because the 2014

2924
01:52:29,750 --> 01:52:27,719
paper was published and it was done by

2925
01:52:32,510 --> 01:52:29,760
researchers in China studying lightning

2926
01:52:35,330 --> 01:52:32,520
and electromagnetism and their advances

2927
01:52:37,790 --> 01:52:35,340
on the subject of electromagnetism are

2928
01:52:41,030 --> 01:52:37,800
uh pretty terrifying at this point

2929
01:52:42,109 --> 01:52:41,040
um they are leaning into it it's a

2930
01:52:45,890 --> 01:52:42,119
research Institution

2931
01:52:48,050 --> 01:52:45,900
yeah and in the even in 2000 in this UK

2932
01:52:50,209 --> 01:52:48,060
secret report they say that they think

2933
01:52:51,950 --> 01:52:50,219
they're most afraid that the Russians

2934
01:52:54,590 --> 01:52:51,960
are ahead of them on the subject of

2935
01:52:57,890 --> 01:52:54,600
Plasma Research in part uh potentially

2936
01:53:00,169 --> 01:52:57,900
due to the stigma around UFOs it's an

2937
01:53:03,290 --> 01:53:00,179
interesting uh irony there potentially

2938
01:53:06,550 --> 01:53:03,300
that yeah end up being behind on science

2939
01:53:08,510 --> 01:53:06,560
because of trying to suppress the

2940
01:53:09,410 --> 01:53:08,520
observations of the objects because

2941
01:53:11,390 --> 01:53:09,420
they're afraid of the defense

2942
01:53:12,770 --> 01:53:11,400
significance it's like

2943
01:53:13,750 --> 01:53:12,780
it's pretty interesting I don't know

2944
01:53:17,629 --> 01:53:13,760
yeah

2945
01:53:20,450 --> 01:53:17,639
UFOs touch everything man they're like

2946
01:53:22,490 --> 01:53:20,460
that one subject that cross-discipline

2947
01:53:24,410 --> 01:53:22,500
with like every other thing it seems

2948
01:53:26,209 --> 01:53:24,420
like yeah and maybe everything I'm

2949
01:53:28,070 --> 01:53:26,219
saying today in like 10 years it's like

2950
01:53:29,750 --> 01:53:28,080
he was a hundred percent off like

2951
01:53:30,950 --> 01:53:29,760
everything that guy said is just totally

2952
01:53:33,410 --> 01:53:30,960
nuts

2953
01:53:34,970 --> 01:53:33,420
I have uh you know whatever I'm just

2954
01:53:36,350 --> 01:53:34,980
like any other person who like does

2955
01:53:38,149 --> 01:53:36,360
research and then thinks that they know

2956
01:53:40,490 --> 01:53:38,159
what they're talking about I've tried to

2957
01:53:42,050 --> 01:53:40,500
do the most I can to have it have

2958
01:53:45,530 --> 01:53:42,060
nothing to do with me and only be direct

2959
01:53:48,709 --> 01:53:45,540
sighted to original sources and the um

2960
01:53:51,649 --> 01:53:48,719
I'll just say that the the disparate

2961
01:53:55,310 --> 01:53:51,659
sources of the descriptions of the

2962
01:53:56,950 --> 01:53:55,320
objects being described all resolving as

2963
01:53:59,930 --> 01:53:56,960
like fundamentally

2964
01:54:01,010 --> 01:53:59,940
observationally apparently the same

2965
01:54:04,129 --> 01:54:01,020
thing

2966
01:54:06,649 --> 01:54:04,139
to me is very compelling yeah the

2967
01:54:09,770 --> 01:54:06,659
America like the FBI report from 49 the

2968
01:54:12,050 --> 01:54:09,780
CIA reports from 52 yeah and ongoing you

2969
01:54:13,729 --> 01:54:12,060
have the U.S Air Force blue book reports

2970
01:54:16,310 --> 01:54:13,739
describing the same objects the United

2971
01:54:17,870 --> 01:54:16,320
Kingdom Ministry of Defense describing

2972
01:54:20,149 --> 01:54:17,880
the same objects you have jail and

2973
01:54:22,970 --> 01:54:20,159
heinek uh Jack Valley you have the

2974
01:54:26,209 --> 01:54:22,980
history of a ghost you have the history

2975
01:54:27,770 --> 01:54:26,219
of uh Elves and the Luminous beings the

2976
01:54:28,910 --> 01:54:27,780
fairies all this stuff and then you look

2977
01:54:31,430 --> 01:54:28,920
at it all

2978
01:54:33,229 --> 01:54:31,440
and then you have proof that voluminous

2979
01:54:35,030 --> 01:54:33,239
objects that are very large do exist in

2980
01:54:36,830 --> 01:54:35,040
the atmosphere and they have the same

2981
01:54:38,629 --> 01:54:36,840
features and

2982
01:54:41,990 --> 01:54:38,639
seems compelling to me but maybe I'm

2983
01:54:45,290 --> 01:54:43,910
the entire point of our conversations

2984
01:54:47,450 --> 01:54:45,300
right

2985
01:54:49,070 --> 01:54:47,460
um are to elevate the discourse and to

2986
01:54:51,109 --> 01:54:49,080
show what it means to negotiate and

2987
01:54:52,490 --> 01:54:51,119
navigate a subject like this

2988
01:54:54,770 --> 01:54:52,500
um yeah and I'm willing to be proven

2989
01:54:56,410 --> 01:54:54,780
wrong and that's uh so important yeah

2990
01:54:59,149 --> 01:54:56,420
that's yeah

2991
01:55:01,129 --> 01:54:59,159
oh sorry not having a teleology is so

2992
01:55:03,229 --> 01:55:01,139
important right like commitments to

2993
01:55:05,770 --> 01:55:03,239
truth not to consistency always being

2994
01:55:08,570 --> 01:55:05,780
willing to give up uh ideas and opinions

2995
01:55:10,669 --> 01:55:08,580
upon presentation of more compelling or

2996
01:55:12,649 --> 01:55:10,679
verifiable evidence

2997
01:55:14,330 --> 01:55:12,659
you know what I kind of personally think

2998
01:55:16,550 --> 01:55:14,340
uh is compelling about where you're

2999
01:55:18,649 --> 01:55:16,560
coming from Campbell is that uh these

3000
01:55:20,450 --> 01:55:18,659
these characteristics describe some of

3001
01:55:23,390 --> 01:55:20,460
the more at least in my opinion some of

3002
01:55:25,609 --> 01:55:23,400
the more stronger UFO cases like my top

3003
01:55:28,790 --> 01:55:25,619
case is Lake Michigan and it describes

3004
01:55:31,010 --> 01:55:28,800
that very well but uh the 1952 Invasion

3005
01:55:34,850 --> 01:55:31,020
uh Mino Air Force Base you mentioned

3006
01:55:36,709 --> 01:55:34,860
also write our visual sightings oh which

3007
01:55:39,590 --> 01:55:36,719
you know that that's more than you can

3008
01:55:41,689 --> 01:55:39,600
say that uh about a lot of UFO cases is

3009
01:55:43,729 --> 01:55:41,699
these better witnessed ones to borrow

3010
01:55:47,030 --> 01:55:43,739
that phrase again that have uh Visual

3011
01:55:49,250 --> 01:55:47,040
and radar data along with it do all kind

3012
01:55:51,229 --> 01:55:49,260
of fall into the descriptions of what

3013
01:55:53,149 --> 01:55:51,239
you were talking about also so I think

3014
01:55:55,970 --> 01:55:53,159
that that it's it's compelling enough to

3015
01:55:57,770 --> 01:55:55,980
like use that as a lens to go back

3016
01:56:00,890 --> 01:55:57,780
through other old cases and stuff like

3017
01:56:02,870 --> 01:56:00,900
uh and and to see how far it matches up

3018
01:56:04,250 --> 01:56:02,880
with a lot of the other descriptions I

3019
01:56:07,430 --> 01:56:04,260
mean like

3020
01:56:09,050 --> 01:56:07,440
um nocturnal lights is a classic UFO

3021
01:56:11,149 --> 01:56:09,060
description I wonder how many more

3022
01:56:13,010 --> 01:56:11,159
classic cases you go back and be like

3023
01:56:14,990 --> 01:56:13,020
you know this these do fit descriptions

3024
01:56:17,570 --> 01:56:15,000
because for a lot of those which are

3025
01:56:20,390 --> 01:56:17,580
classified as unknowns I mean that's a

3026
01:56:22,129 --> 01:56:20,400
at least a very plausible explanation

3027
01:56:25,010 --> 01:56:22,139
for some of these ones that haven't had

3028
01:56:26,870 --> 01:56:25,020
an explanation like uh the Lake Michigan

3029
01:56:27,950 --> 01:56:26,880
case that I've been looking into I mean

3030
01:56:29,750 --> 01:56:27,960
this is the only thing that actually

3031
01:56:32,629 --> 01:56:29,760
kind of fits so I'm putting that at the

3032
01:56:33,350 --> 01:56:32,639
top of my list as to identifying these

3033
01:56:35,570 --> 01:56:33,360
things

3034
01:56:37,910 --> 01:56:35,580
that's cool and okay and that is sort of

3035
01:56:39,530 --> 01:56:37,920
the essence of what I sort of picked up

3036
01:56:41,149 --> 01:56:39,540
on when I started looking into this more

3037
01:56:43,669 --> 01:56:41,159
and more without any of this history of

3038
01:56:46,669 --> 01:56:43,679
the cases when I started looking at some

3039
01:56:48,290 --> 01:56:46,679
of the cases and um getting into the

3040
01:56:50,689 --> 01:56:48,300
details of the way people reported it

3041
01:56:53,149 --> 01:56:50,699
the number of people it is hard to not

3042
01:56:54,709 --> 01:56:53,159
think like it's like these people I feel

3043
01:56:57,590 --> 01:56:54,719
like at least some of them are seeing

3044
01:57:00,890 --> 01:56:57,600
something somewhat like what the sort of

3045
01:57:03,649 --> 01:57:00,900
like vague set of descriptions ends up

3046
01:57:05,209 --> 01:57:03,659
coalescing into sure and it's like it is

3047
01:57:07,990 --> 01:57:05,219
compelling just from a human perspective

3048
01:57:11,450 --> 01:57:08,000
to like trust right and so

3049
01:57:14,390 --> 01:57:11,460
seeing all of these things like the the

3050
01:57:17,810 --> 01:57:14,400
U.S Air Force record like Declassified

3051
01:57:19,129 --> 01:57:17,820
you know blue book report from 1968

3052
01:57:22,250 --> 01:57:19,139
saying

3053
01:57:24,950 --> 01:57:22,260
ball lightning has these features this

3054
01:57:28,729 --> 01:57:24,960
is probably a ball lightning and then um

3055
01:57:30,530 --> 01:57:28,739
thinking of like there has been that

3056
01:57:33,589 --> 01:57:30,540
possible

3057
01:57:35,990 --> 01:57:33,599
space in this subject where some people

3058
01:57:37,790 --> 01:57:36,000
actually are seeing these things that if

3059
01:57:40,189 --> 01:57:37,800
I had been told that they saw them until

3060
01:57:41,330 --> 01:57:40,199
last year even I would have said not yet

3061
01:57:42,890 --> 01:57:41,340
that I don't think that that doesn't

3062
01:57:44,870 --> 01:57:42,900
exist that's not within my sphere of

3063
01:57:47,270 --> 01:57:44,880
reality to have these huge luminous

3064
01:57:48,950 --> 01:57:47,280
things flying around like that right and

3065
01:57:51,709 --> 01:57:48,960
so it's like

3066
01:57:54,290 --> 01:57:51,719
there is an injustice there in peoples

3067
01:57:55,729 --> 01:57:54,300
and if if this is correct that the

3068
01:57:57,530 --> 01:57:55,739
objects have been observed by these

3069
01:57:59,689 --> 01:57:57,540
people in this way for so long like

3070
01:58:01,550 --> 01:57:59,699
there is an interesting

3071
01:58:04,070 --> 01:58:01,560
Touch of Injustice there in the

3072
01:58:06,229 --> 01:58:04,080
invalidation that's occurred and yeah to

3073
01:58:08,270 --> 01:58:06,239
look at the UK Ministry of Defense

3074
01:58:09,709 --> 01:58:08,280
report from 2000 saying we're going to

3075
01:58:12,530 --> 01:58:09,719
keep this Secret

3076
01:58:14,689 --> 01:58:12,540
because we need to study these things in

3077
01:58:16,310 --> 01:58:14,699
more depth and get a on top of exactly

3078
01:58:18,350 --> 01:58:16,320
how they function since they could have

3079
01:58:20,629 --> 01:58:18,360
potential applications in all kinds of

3080
01:58:23,330 --> 01:58:20,639
things like fusion power and radar

3081
01:58:24,350 --> 01:58:23,340
spoofing and all this crap it's like

3082
01:58:26,570 --> 01:58:24,360
they're

3083
01:58:28,729 --> 01:58:26,580
on paper it says we're intentionally

3084
01:58:30,770 --> 01:58:28,739
keeping this thing secret so it's like

3085
01:58:33,530 --> 01:58:30,780
it is the conspiracy but that's written

3086
01:58:34,850 --> 01:58:33,540
down by the government and it's like it

3087
01:58:36,109 --> 01:58:34,860
makes it so much more interesting I

3088
01:58:38,570 --> 01:58:36,119
think this subject will become

3089
01:58:40,669 --> 01:58:38,580
increasingly fascinating as sort of

3090
01:58:42,550 --> 01:58:40,679
things become more and more known over

3091
01:58:44,209 --> 01:58:42,560
time

3092
01:58:46,310 --> 01:58:44,219
wonderful

3093
01:58:48,770 --> 01:58:46,320
gentlemen we are just about at the top

3094
01:58:50,330 --> 01:58:48,780
of the hour wow yeah it was good to get

3095
01:58:54,050 --> 01:58:50,340
the gang back together it's been a while

3096
01:58:56,510 --> 01:58:54,060
indeed um yeah uh before we wrap things

3097
01:58:58,850 --> 01:58:56,520
up Nick what do you have going on

3098
01:59:01,010 --> 01:58:58,860
um I'm still doing kind of the uh the

3099
01:59:03,890 --> 01:59:01,020
big report on Lake Michigan and um with

3100
01:59:06,109 --> 01:59:03,900
the release of the Netflix uh they're

3101
01:59:08,330 --> 01:59:06,119
serious or Unsolved Mysteries I have

3102
01:59:10,070 --> 01:59:08,340
more to add to it now because I want to

3103
01:59:11,990 --> 01:59:10,080
um you know check that water spout thing

3104
01:59:13,910 --> 01:59:12,000
off the box in there too so it's coming

3105
01:59:15,589 --> 01:59:13,920
along it'll probably be done in like a

3106
01:59:17,629 --> 01:59:15,599
week or two but that'll be kind of

3107
01:59:19,129 --> 01:59:17,639
comprehensive of what I've learned and

3108
01:59:20,750 --> 01:59:19,139
gone over throughout the whole case and

3109
01:59:23,030 --> 01:59:20,760
kind of like all the information in one

3110
01:59:25,490 --> 01:59:23,040
place and citing all the sources kind of

3111
01:59:28,070 --> 01:59:25,500
like what I did with uh Hudson Valley

3112
01:59:29,629 --> 01:59:28,080
nice Lewis what about you

3113
01:59:34,609 --> 01:59:29,639
I'm actually

3114
01:59:39,229 --> 01:59:34,619
reading this book

3115
01:59:41,149 --> 01:59:39,239
oh nice oh great cover but yeah I love

3116
01:59:42,890 --> 01:59:41,159
these like they look like Trapper Keeper

3117
01:59:45,290 --> 01:59:42,900
covers

3118
01:59:47,209 --> 01:59:45,300
it looks like there's some good stuff in

3119
01:59:48,890 --> 01:59:47,219
here but and some not so good stuff it's

3120
01:59:50,930 --> 01:59:48,900
one of those types of books but we'll

3121
01:59:52,510 --> 01:59:50,940
see sure I'll give you a report on it

3122
01:59:54,050 --> 01:59:52,520
when um I finish

3123
01:59:55,790 --> 01:59:54,060
yeah

3124
01:59:57,470 --> 01:59:55,800
Campbell

3125
01:59:59,089 --> 01:59:57,480
yes you were the man of the hour but

3126
02:00:01,010 --> 01:59:59,099
what else is cooking

3127
02:00:03,290 --> 02:00:01,020
well I've been uh just doing a bit of

3128
02:00:07,490 --> 02:00:03,300
work on my website I actually added um a

3129
02:00:09,169 --> 02:00:07,500
couple new pages a um a page dedicated

3130
02:00:11,689 --> 02:00:09,179
to like the invisible night school just

3131
02:00:14,689 --> 02:00:11,699
to uh connect that

3132
02:00:16,910 --> 02:00:14,699
um uh and then a page of acknowledgments

3133
02:00:20,030 --> 02:00:16,920
uh uh for people who have helped me out

3134
02:00:24,770 --> 02:00:22,490
um and uh I'm working on another page

3135
02:00:26,149 --> 02:00:24,780
just compiling like the videos uh where

3136
02:00:29,209 --> 02:00:26,159
I've been in like interviews and stuff

3137
02:00:31,189 --> 02:00:29,219
uh based on uh Louise your uh your

3138
02:00:32,270 --> 02:00:31,199
suggestion actually I think uh throw

3139
02:00:34,310 --> 02:00:32,280
those videos on there so that's what

3140
02:00:36,109 --> 02:00:34,320
I've been working on cool awesome great

3141
02:00:37,910 --> 02:00:36,119
all right

3142
02:00:39,830 --> 02:00:37,920
yeah what about you I'm just trying to

3143
02:00:42,530 --> 02:00:39,840
keep the trains running on time

3144
02:00:46,250 --> 02:00:44,030
I'll be trying out this new time slot

3145
02:00:48,770 --> 02:00:46,260
Wednesday evenings 9 p.m Eastern

3146
02:00:50,629 --> 02:00:48,780
um I think uh look we always discuss

3147
02:00:52,790 --> 02:00:50,639
epistemology ontology on this show

3148
02:00:54,470 --> 02:00:52,800
whether or not covet is actually over is

3149
02:00:55,970 --> 02:00:54,480
certainly Up For Debate but it seems

3150
02:00:57,589 --> 02:00:55,980
that people's weekends are quickly

3151
02:00:59,930 --> 02:00:57,599
becoming filled with social activities

3152
02:01:01,669 --> 02:00:59,940
instead of staring at screens

3153
02:01:03,530 --> 02:01:01,679
um so Wednesday evenings I think is what

3154
02:01:04,070 --> 02:01:03,540
we're going to be shooting for

3155
02:01:06,050 --> 02:01:04,080
um

3156
02:01:08,629 --> 02:01:06,060
Nick we'll have you on next week talk

3157
02:01:10,910 --> 02:01:08,639
through 1994 Lake Michigan in depth with

3158
02:01:13,850 --> 02:01:10,920
your slides yeah um I'd love to do a

3159
02:01:14,990 --> 02:01:13,860
show on uh experience or phenomena right

3160
02:01:16,910 --> 02:01:15,000
and how it maps to like different

3161
02:01:18,649 --> 02:01:16,920
experiences of exotic and Altered States

3162
02:01:21,589 --> 02:01:18,659
Of Consciousness near-death experiences

3163
02:01:23,390 --> 02:01:21,599
psychedelics Etc basically you know my

3164
02:01:25,550 --> 02:01:23,400
favorite subjects

3165
02:01:27,430 --> 02:01:25,560
um and uh yeah you know thanks everyone

3166
02:01:30,530 --> 02:01:27,440
for joining us you can find us at the

3167
02:01:34,250 --> 02:01:30,540
invisiblenightschool.com I'm Leah Prime

3168
02:01:39,169 --> 02:01:34,260
um and I am joined by Nick coffin kallus

3169
02:01:41,030 --> 02:01:39,179
callus callus callus wow call us I'm

3170
02:01:44,330 --> 02:01:41,040
gonna do it every time every freaking

3171
02:01:47,510 --> 02:01:44,340
time either way Louis caitano who's uh

3172
02:01:52,089 --> 02:01:47,520
UFO ufology is corrupt.com and Campbell

3173
02:01:55,310 --> 02:01:52,099
UAP study uh owns and runs UAP study.com

3174
02:01:58,070 --> 02:01:55,320
yes I always forget if it's.com or dot

3175
02:01:59,810 --> 02:01:58,080
net yeah wonderful thanks again for the

3176
02:02:01,790 --> 02:01:59,820
lovely conversation gentlemen and thanks